CAT vs. Cummins

General Lee 01 · March 6, 2002

OK, I know this is totally un-related to GM, so I'll leave to the discretion of the moderators of this area if this should be elsewhere or not?

So, when it comes down to it, which one of these 2 diesel engine Co's have the better\best engine?

CMNTMXR81 · March 7, 2002

I know a couple of people that work at Cat as well as many truckers who love the Cat 3406E (I think that's it) in their 18 wheelers, so I voted Cat.

firecadet613 · March 7, 2002

I own some CAT stock so I'll have to vote CAT. The I6 Cummins has in the Ram is pretty nice though.

SoMnDMAX · March 10, 2002

As a Caterpillar employee, I'm kinda biased. Cat all the way!!!

Jpshostr · March 10, 2002

Boy, this is a tough choice for me since you didn't give an application.

For OTR rigs, Cat is the better choice, I bet it would be scary if you knew the % of trucks out there running them.

Now for applications such as the agricultural equipment industry, I'd lean towards the Cummins. As of right now only the Cat equipment run Cat engines (soon to change due to a major landmark deal between Cat and AGCO, but I won't get into that). They used to be run in Steigers and a few NH combines, but no more. Cummins are found in CIH, a few NH, lots of AGCO, and loads of other brands. I'd tip the hat in this sector towards the Cummins. Have two CDC 8.3Ls running on our farm with a combined 9000+ hours and no problems, not unheard of for some to go 20K+ hours on one motor with no overhaul needed.

My choice, Cummins.

General Lee 01 · March 10, 2002

I take it you don't like the deal between AGCO and CAT? ???

Well, here's a Question for you JP.

Would the engine in CAT equipment beat the cummins Agricultural (I assume there's little to no difference between the 2 applications?)

Jpshostr · March 10, 2002

I take it you don't like the deal between AGCO and CAT? ???

Well, here's a Question for you JP.

Would the engine in CAT equipment beat the cummins Agricultural (I assume there's little to no difference between the 2 applications?)

This deal I don't care for one bit as Cat basically said screw agriculture (after saying they were committed to ag for years and years) as they sold off their tractor line (their only design for ag, introduced in 1988) in exchange for only selling engines to AGCO. AGCO wins out here, but they need to come out with their own technology rather than just buy what they need (thats all they do, buy companies).

I've only operated a handful of Cat motors in ag settings, and IMO they don't seem to have the torque curve as the Cummins do. The Cummins, such as our 8.3Ls, just grunt down and lug it out better it seems. From watching both operate in the same field, I also give the noise advantage to the Cummins, a quieter, deeper tone. Sure, young bucks like noise, but if you are operating a tractor for hours and hours on end, you want it to be as quiet as possible. I also like the fuel efficiency on a Cummins, ours don't burn a whole lot, even considering the little screw on the pump has been turned a tad .

Don't take this wrong, Cat makes a good product in their engines. I just choose the Cummins for the above reasons.

sincityZ71 · March 11, 2002

My cousin has one of those CAT rubber-tracked tractors, can't remember the exact model number. I have had the chance to take it for a spin a couple of times, and ride along while in the fields and it is pretty sweet IMO. You can practically turn the thing on a dime. He loves that thing. I have driven tractors with both types of engines (CAT and CIH) and both seemed to have great power. And my uncle and cousin haven't complained about them any or had any problems with them. Guess it just comes down to a personal preference between the two.

SoMnDMAX · March 12, 2002

Jshopstr- there's much more to the AGCO/Cat deal that people do not know. Basically, three years ago, Cat Corporate said that the Ag. division would become profitable, or it would dissappear. Well, guess what happened. This coupled with some quite agressive growth and profitability goals pretty much put the Ag. division "out to pasture".... It's too bad. The Challenger is one he!! of a machine. I used to make parts for the 35's and 45's when they were assembled in Minneapolis, MN....

Jpshostr · March 12, 2002

Jshopstr- there's much more to the AGCO/Cat deal that people do not know. Basically, three years ago, Cat Corporate said that the Ag. division would become profitable, or it would dissappear. Well, guess what happened. This coupled with some quite agressive growth and profitability goals pretty much put the Ag. division "out to pasture".... It's too bad. The Challenger is one he!! of a machine. I used to make parts for the 35's and 45's when they were assembled in Minneapolis, MN....

I've heard all that as well and don't deny it. I also think that those Challenger tractors are well built machines as well. What really pisses me off about this is how for years Cat has said how committed they are to the agriculture market, that they will become the next solid stable John Deere. Then, completely out of the blue, we get a press release saying they had sold off their only claim to fame in the ag market, their rubber tracked tractors, the only product they engineered from the ground up.

Sorry, but they don't get much credability from me or many other farmers anymore after this whole deal, its left a bad taste in many mouths.

SoMnDMAX · March 13, 2002

Sorry, but they don't get much credability from me or many other farmers anymore after this whole deal, its left a bad taste in many mouths.

One thing to keep in mind- you guys will probably benefit by this. How many Cat dealers are within a 100 mile radius of you? I've got one. How many AGCO dealers are within a 100 mile radius of you? I've got 5 or 6. More dealers should in theory provide better prices (due to competition), and more parts availability. All that changes really is the nameplate, the color, and the sales network. The tractor stays the same.

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

Jpshostr · March 14, 2002

One thing to keep in mind- you guys will probably benefit by this. How many Cat dealers are within a 100 mile radius of you? I've got one. How many AGCO dealers are within a 100 mile radius of you?

Dealer support for either one is very poor at best in our area, pretty much our only choices are red or green. I've heard that angle being debated over as well and it can be taken several ways, both for good and bad. Good, two dealer lines will be carrying the Challenger tractor. Bad, more than a few Cat dealers have said the #### with the ag market and have plans to drop their ag division.

Personally, this whole deal has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I think Cat will find they did the same to many of their customers. There is no doubt in my mind that Cat is going to come out like a Bandit in this, they will be selling a whole lot of engines to AGCO from now on, and they won't be trying to expand in a mature market. I just think they could have gone about this in a much better manner than they did.

Offroadr · March 14, 2002

Jshopstr- there's much more to the AGCO/Cat deal that people do not know. Basically, three years ago, Cat Corporate said that the Ag. division would become profitable, or it would dissappear. Well, guess what happened. This coupled with some quite agressive growth and profitability goals pretty much put the Ag. division "out to pasture".... It's too bad. The Challenger is one he!! of a machine. I used to make parts for the 35's and 45's when they were assembled in Minneapolis, MN....

That is correct. I work for Cat and all business units were told to be profitable or be eliminated. We have diversified significantly over the last few years to avoid the cyclical business in many of the markets. The company has no interest in revisiting the '80s where hundreds of millions we lost because heavy equipment and truck engines were in a slump.

The ag business has been in a slump for years, look at Deere. They have to ride it because that is a majority of their business. Why be in a market that shows no sign of recovery no matter how much the goverment trys to help?

The customers haven't been slighted, parts will always be available, the tractors are still available. They just have a different sticker on the side