How to get more tq/hp out of 6.0

pch02 · July 14, 2005

Anyone have any suggestions on how to get more tq/hp out of a 2002 2500hd 6.0?

Looking for the most economical way. I was considering trading this truck in (great shape and only 18,300 miles) but the dealer wanted to only give me a price in the high teens!!!!! I live in Pittsburgh Pa, the market must not be good for used trucks here. Any help would be appriciated. Thanks

builderpaul · July 14, 2005

Most bang for the buck is a tune.

See my post in the light duty forum "wait4me tune installed."

MrQuadrasteer · July 14, 2005

Absolutely a custom tune is the best bang-for-the-buck mod you can do. You'll get way better throttle response, more power across the rpm range, better economy (if you keep your foot out of it ), and it'll just be way funner to drive

Freyguy · July 14, 2005

A tune is definately the way to go. Bryan from PCMFORLESS isn't too far away from you. He's around Reading, so it would be a fast turnaround. You could also go see him for a custom dyno tune like I did!

Not downing any of the other tuners. From what I read, they are all good.

Bud · July 14, 2005

Anyone have any suggestions on how to get more tq/hp out of a 2002 2500hd 6.0?
Looking for the most economical way. I was considering trading this truck in (great shape and only 18,300 miles) but the dealer wanted to only give me a price in the high teens!!!!! I live in Pittsburgh Pa, the market must not be good for used trucks here. Any help would be appriciated. Thanks

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A Wester's tune.

Mighty HD · July 14, 2005

Nelson, Nelson, Nelson

His tunes are 100% bad ass

98_1LE · July 15, 2005

STS rear turbo

MrQuadrasteer · July 15, 2005

pch02 · July 15, 2005

Thanks for all of the info. Does any one have a specific tune from Westers or PCMFORLESS that they recommend. Thanks Pete

MrQuadrasteer · July 15, 2005

Get the Wester's HOT tune !!!!!!!

Freyguy · July 15, 2005

Yup, whatever company you go with, make it HOT! You have to bump up to 93 octane gas, but if you get 1mpg better, you will be paying about the same cost per mile due to the increase in fuel economy. You can also customize it and tell them what you tow if any, how firm you want your shift points, etc.

You'll be amazed at what your engine can do!

vhato · July 15, 2005

Any custom tune will get you what you want.

I am writing an article for FSC that demistify's custom tunes. I ripped a $550 (local) custom tune from a 2002 Camaro SS that is all motor and runs 11's.

All that was basically done is freed up HP that was already there. I think the tuners "try to lock" the PCM's so people like me won't argue what was done.

I have been reviewing a Predator Programmer Tune and a Hypertech tune in my software right now. The Predator makes some major changes to the Power Enrichment Tables and Torque Management on the Vortec 6000. The HyperTech seems tame and drivetrain safe. My money is on the Predator Programmer.

The Vortec 6000 engine is really choked from the factory. When viewing the Power Enrichment Tables I can see that engine power is *very relaxed* at all temperatures (Hot and Cold Tables) when below 90% throttle. Once you hit 100% throttle (Wide Open) Torque Management pulls timing to hell in 1st 2nd and 3rd gears. In a nut shell, the Vortec 6000's computer is *constantly* fighting the driver for severely reduced engine power and the computer wins every time. I guess these trucks are built to haul heavy loads all the time so GM played it safe to keep the drivetrain cool at a major expense of power and mileage.

I may post some screen shots when I get back from dinner as proof of my discoveries between a stock, custom, and Predator Tune.

Another note, I found the Lean Cruise feature I hear about from time to time. It appears that all GM trucks have it, but it is illegal to use, so it is turned off. Its purpose is too lean out the fuel when a certain speed is hit to conserve fuel. A lean mixture is not environmentally friendly with emissions, but at $2.30 a gallon for regular who cares. I set mine to 65 MPH, so at that speed or more I should be sipping fuel. We'll see. This must be where the custom tuners are getting 2 MPG or more increases. Nothing magical, they just turned it on.

It is hard to explain, but it appears GM Engineers built the PCM to run the engine at its highest efficiency for a particular octane of fuel. From there I found TONS of tables that do nothing more than reduce engine power for emissions or drivetrain safety reasons. It is kinda cool. All a tuner has to really do on a mechanically stock truck (stock engine with after market intake and exhaust) is bascially remove the power robbing tables and let the computer do its job of measureing air and injecting fuel.

I also can see how the Tuners do 89/91 Tunes. High and Low octane tables exist just for this reason. GM is brilliant. A knock here and a knock there and the PCM then knows how much timing to remove for that fuel. An 89/91 tune would almost be unnoticeable to the driver. GM Tunes both for 87 only and the custom tuners have free reign to change those to 87/93 or 89/91 or whatever they want. It isn't this simple, but it is fairly easy.

A custom tune by far gets the most power, but the Predator shouldn't be too far behind. I am having a very fun time with custom tuning right now. I write computer programs and IP maps all day long for networks and computers. Some of the maps and equations in custom pcm tuning seem similar. Especially Volumetric Efficiency (Complicated Mathematics). Almost english. At this speed to this. At this temperature do that. If AFR is this, then do that. If idiot driver wants to haul a$$, reduce engine power immdediately, but allow to rev to redline giving the illusion of speed. This is totally fun stuff.

Sorry to hijack this thread. My point was, don't spend alot of money unless you plan on changing the Cam Shaft or something major. IMO custom tunes are all the same as long as the engine is mechanically the same from the factory. Major increases in air flow would then justify a need for an expensive tune. The stock PCM tune can already handle your needs, you just need someone to "turn off" the power robbing tables and maybe increase timing for high octane fuels. Intakes, Headers and Cat-Back exhaust aren't even mods to your PCM.

Mighty HD · July 16, 2005

Very informative. I'd love to see some screen shots. What program are you using?

pch02 · July 16, 2005

Great Info. What do u suggest vhato? I would like to get more torque and hp out of the engine. I tow a snowmobile trailer in the winter and during the summer I haul various heavy loads. Truck does great but a little extra in both would be even better. Is there a cheaper tune that I can get that will do what I need it to? Can or will a dealer do something like this? I'm familiar with the old engines and could rebuild a old 350 that wasn't computerized but the new engines with all of the computers, I'm lost. Any suggestions would be great.

vhato · July 16, 2005

MightyHD,

I am using a Tech2 (owner of a repair shop has one), FlashScan and HP Tuners VCM Suite Pro 1.7.0. The HP Tuners version I have has a cable coded for all GM 2002, 2004 and an upgrade for 2005 on the way. Me and some very trusted buddies split it several ways because we are always broke with all of our expensive hobbies. A friend who codes for Motorola processor's (he also writes the OS code for several SCADA and many Programmable Logic Controllers "PLC's") and has written a tiny app that rips PCM data, bit by bit, then strips the lock code (he thinks anyway). We are gonna try it on my PCM to see if it actually works. The local "Pro" tuner around here supposedly locked his code, but we pulled it. It is posible he forgot though and we pulled PCM code that was free.

PCH02,

Like I said earlier, the Predator so far is my favorite handheld. There are others out there that I haven't seen and cannot comment on. However, a custom tune to your PCM will get you the power you want which *can* be better than the packaged Predator tune. I cannot recommend any specific tune over another. On this site there are fan boys of Nelson, Westers, PCMforLess and another I don't remember. Each of the 4 very dramatically in price. The difference is in customer support, future upgrades and application. IMO on a mechanically stock engine all of these tuners will get the same results. However once you add Forced Induction, Cam Shaft, FAST Intake, heads or bore and stroke the engine, that is when the differences between the 4 become apparent and an experienced Tuner will be necessary. Contact each one, tell them what you want and what you get for your money. You may be confortable with the $100 tune or you may want to bounce all the way to a $550.00 tune. Like I said, I feel they are exactly the same on a stock engine, that is when customer service comes in.

What I don't know is how to discover who can do what. The Local guy charges $550.00. The engine I am looking over is in the 2002 Camaro SS with cam and other mods. The Tuner has made several changes to the VE Table and Idle Tables, but this car will not Idle unless you mash the gas since any of the 4 cam upgrades (My friend makes good money and spends lots of money for other people to make his car fast). He has spent $6,000 on cams and $2000 on custom tunes with no results. Anyway, my point was, these guys may be able to tune for WOT, they can't do squat for idle or part throttle driving, but they are getting big money from everybody. I don't think these guys understand Idle, IAT or Volumetric Efficiency because of the values they have selected. So how do you know from one Tuner to another who can actually tune an upgraded engine? A stock tune is simple and almost brainless, all you do is free up the power robber and change the High/Low Octane Tables, TM and one or two others. But Cam's change everything about an engine and huge amounts of knowledge are required. The $2000 my friend has spent on local dyno tunes haven't given him anything. So I ask again, How do I know a $500 tuner is better than a $100 tuner?? You don't, you take a risk and hope for the best unless they offer a money back guarantee.