5w30 oil

customboss · September 6

27 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

Well one thing for sure, you can clearly see the additive companies do the bulk of R&D testing. Granted, the larger guys like XOM and Shell have access internally to all the Infineum work being it's a jointly owned venture. Gokhan was a good poster.

A few years ago Roy Howell for Red Line was asked about these specifications. His answer was pretty funny. He said they make their oils for all engines old and new. He basically shrugged off the industry specifications and has kept Red Line full SAPS for decades.

You can see Amsoil Signature Series kind of hovers the middle ground somewhere between off the shelf oils and HPL and Red Line. They lowered the sulfated ash levels of Signature Series to around 1.04. Mobil 1, and Castrol Edge are now .7 and .8 (mid saps).

HPL's PCMO line have HT/HS numbers more in line with fuel economy grades. Their 5w30's (non Euro) have HT/HS of 3.2. No VII is a different animal.

Shell and ExxonMobil by law have to stay arms length away from Infineum work. The IP owned by infineum is its own.

Heres a graph of aniline points for solvency. Dow is trying to sell its oil soluble PAG product but it’s a good reference. Confirming Grumpys commentary on the subject.

Edited September 6 by customboss
Pic

Grumpy Bear · September 6

20 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

Well one thing for sure, you can clearly see the additive companies do the bulk of R&D testing. Granted, the larger guys like XOM and Shell have access internally to all the Infineum work being it's a jointly owned venture. Gokhan was a good poster.

A few years ago Roy Howell for Red Line was asked about these specifications. His answer was pretty funny. He said they make their oils for all engines old and new. He basically shrugged off the industry specifications and has kept Red Line full SAPS for decades.

You can see Amsoil Signature Series kind of hovers the middle ground somewhere between off the shelf oils and HPL and Red Line. They lowered the sulfated ash levels of Signature Series to around 1.04. Mobil 1, and Castrol Edge are now .7 and .8 (mid saps).

HPL's PCMO line have HT/HS numbers more in line with fuel economy grades. Their 5w30's (non Euro) have HT/HS of 3.2. No VII is a different animal.

Not all Red Line HP oils are high SAPS. Look at the Euro line. Mid SAPS and the 5W30 is Porsche C30.

Food for thought.

When you build an SAE 30 from a Group II or PAO, what is the HTHS/HTFS viscosity based on? A Newtonian fluid that is also the same viscosity regardless of shear rate and only dependent on temperature.

How about when you build a 5W30 on a Group III/III+ on a 2 to 4 cSt base? HTHS/HTFS is based on the POLYMER which dies under shear. Especially above the HTHS shear rate.

customboss · September 6

4 minutes ago, customboss said:

Shell and ExxonMobil by law have to stay arms length away from Infineum work. The IP owned by infineum is its own.

Heres a graph of aniline points for solvency. Dow is trying to sell its oil soluble PAG product but it’s a good reference. Confirming Grumpys commentary on the subject.

I have good reason to believe AMSOIL is using OSP in its formulations to get that solvency, all of them, low dose but effective.

Grumpy Bear · September 6

5 minutes ago, customboss said:

Shell and ExxonMobil by law have to stay arms length away from Infineum work. The IP owned by infineum is its own.

Heres a graph of aniline points for solvency. Dow is trying to sell its oil soluble PAG product but it’s a good reference. Confirming Grumpys commentary on the subject.

How about the Evolve Estolides? Does their 5W30 C3 oil have any solvency? I've seen information in both directions.

VicFirth · September 6

35 minutes ago, customboss said:

I have good reason to believe AMSOIL is using OSP in its formulations to get that solvency, all of them, low dose but effective.

Interesting. I know their virgin oxidation value is around 62 for SS, indicating the presence of a good dose of group V. I wonder if it's OSP that's causing that? Maybe both?

customboss · September 6

43 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

How about the Evolve Estolides? Does their 5W30 C3 oil have any solvency? I've seen information in both directions.

I'm not sure how they are doing it. Probably various estolide formulations that are made to be aniline.

customboss · September 6

19 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

Interesting. I know their virgin oxidation value is around 62 for SS, indicating the presence of a good dose of group V. I wonder if it's OSP that's causing that? Maybe both?

You won't see OSP at all in traditional testing. Hidden chemistry like many. However KF can reveal prescence of the additive if water is isolated out.

https://www.lube-media.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Lube-Tech090-OilSolublePolyalkyleneGlycols.pdf

customboss · September 6

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG/BOK/LS/Gears/Understanding Polyalkylene Glycols (And Where to Apply Them)_tlt article_May08.pdf

VicFirth · September 6

Good stuff Custom and Grumpy, thank you both.

customboss · September 6

Clean it up and make it pretty Grumpy......please.

Woydt NATO BIO oils,PAG.pdf

customboss · September 6

I believe there was 48,000 mile 2.7 V6 Chrysler that ran a PAG ( water soluble) formula very like the 1940's-50's Union Carbide formulations that contained 0.1% or less of Sulf ASH, NO VI, that ran one oil change to 100,000 with no issues but some corrosion from lack of specific additives geared to the modern engines. OSP solves all those issues but its $$$$.

Grumpy Bear · September 7

10 hours ago, customboss said:

Clean it up and make it pretty Grumpy......please.

Woydt NATO BIO oils,PAG.pdf 1.31 MB · 3 downloads

Not sure what you mean. You want some of it graphed or you want Cliff Notes of the PDF? :dunno:

Grumpy Bear · September 7

Are we getting the point yet?

The above is what happens in a modern multigrade oil. HOWEVER in a No-VII oil or conventional straight weight the viscosity represented by the HTLS is the same as the HTHS and HTFS and HTUS. The trade is low temperature performance over a mineral single grade but not necessarily a naturally high VI based narrow range multigrade. Bottom line is temperature is the only modifier for a No-VII/Mineral single weight. HUGE viscosity thus WEAR advantage.