Oil Consumption

Grumpy Bear · July 16, 2023

23 hours ago, TunaFresh said:

To my surprise, the esters used in Red Line do not clean well per Dave Granquist at Red Line. The cleaning some see may be a result of the high dose of Ca they have historically used.

Per chemistry they do. See that twin OH at the end of this NPG Ester? POLAR. Red Line is a PAO/POE NPG Ester with an oxidation value 124. So does HPL's SAE30/40 - EC. 113 oxidation (VOA). CUMMINS Restore in my motor was also oxidation of 122 on VOA and 141 VOA CUMMINS. HPL SAE40-EC at 4:1 with Rotella T6 5W40 was 63.

IF calcium could clean, and it can't, then Group II oils from the 50's and 60's would have been legendary in cleaning ability. They were not. Not at 5K+ OCI's. Ca doesn't clean anything. It slows the rate it gets dirty by inhibiting oxidation. It can't even keep clean things clean.

23 hours ago, TunaFresh said:

TBN is also a relic of the past with little value. The SP oils are showing much greater wear protection than SN+ oils. As they lowered the detergents (Ca and Mg), less competition on the between anti wear additives improved wear protection.

The "Competition" for Zn and Phos isn't with Ca or Mg but with the OH in the ESTER. Even that is ONLY at levels used in research to find the limits. Some dingbat cherry picked the result without the data and the internet being what it is, IT STUCK. Mg sulfonate is a really good dispersant. Ca It isn't being removed to make wear work better but to STOP LSPI.

All the trash hauled out, HOW POLAR depends on the chain length. The OH group is at the end of the chain. Longer chains, fewer OH groups per molar volume. All Dave meant is that what they use is less polar than some other possible choices. He's been my rep for 30 years or so.

This is conventional oil relying on Ca to keep it clean.

150,000 miles (Biosynthetic Feild Trials)

How'd that work out?

:crackup:

This is Red Line HP at 167,000 miles.

My truck. Ca didn't do this. Solvency did.

You believe what you like. I have about 6 motors over 30 years like the above. I'll be believe my lying eyes.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

Jettech1 · July 16, 2023

23 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Per chemistry they do. See that twin OH at the end of this NPG Ester? POLAR. Red Line is a PAO/POE NPG Ester with an oxidation value 124. So does HPL's SAE30/40 - EC. 113 oxidation (VOA). CUMMINS Restore in my motor was also oxidation of 122 on VOA and 141 VOA CUMMINS. HPL SAE40-EC at 4:1 with Rotella T6 5W40 was 63.

IF calcium could clean, and it can't, then Group II oils from the 50's and 60's would have been legendary in cleaning ability. They were not. Not at 5K+ OCI's. Ca doesn't clean anything. It slows the rate it gets dirty by inhibiting oxidation. It can't even keep clean things clean.

The "Competition" for Zn and Phos isn't with Ca or Mg but with the OH in the ESTER. Even that is ONLY at levels used in research to find the limits. Some dingbat cherry picked the result without the data and the internet being what it is, IT STUCK. Mg sulfonate is a really good dispersant. Ca It isn't being removed to make wear work better but to STOP LSPI.

All the trash hauled out, HOW POLAR depends on the chain length. The OH group is at the end of the chain. Longer chains, fewer OH groups per molar volume. All Dave meant is that what they use is less polar than some other possible choices. He's been my rep for 30 years or so.

This is conventional oil relying on Ca to keep it clean.

150,000 miles (Biosynthetic Feild Trials)

How'd the work out?

This is Red Line HP at 167,000 miles.

My truck. Ca didn't do this. Solvency did.

You believe what you like. I have about 6 motors over 30 years like the above. I'll be believe my lying eyes.

If someday I'm feeling a little cocky about the topic of oil, please remind to never go up against you...lol....dear lord man, your knowledge is PHD level when it comes to oil. You win....!!! Your knowledge is amazing and thank you for sharing it.

VicFirth · July 16, 2023

On 7/16/2023 at 4:04 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

Per chemistry they do. See that twin OH at the end of this NPG Ester? POLAR. Red Line is a PAO/POE NPG Ester with an oxidation value 124. So does HPL's SAE30/40 - EC. 113 oxidation (VOA). CUMMINS Restore in my motor was also oxidation of 122 on VOA and 141 VOA CUMMINS. HPL SAE40-EC at 4:1 with Rotella T6 5W40 was 63.

IF calcium could clean, and it can't, then Group II oils from the 50's and 60's would have been legendary in cleaning ability. They were not. Not at 5K+ OCI's. Ca doesn't clean anything. It slows the rate it gets dirty by inhibiting oxidation. It can't even keep clean things clean.

The "Competition" for Zn and Phos isn't with Ca or Mg but with the OH in the ESTER. Even that is ONLY at levels used in research to find the limits. Some dingbat cherry picked the result without the data and the internet being what it is, IT STUCK. Mg sulfonate is a really good dispersant. Ca It isn't being removed to make wear work better but to STOP LSPI.

All the trash hauled out, HOW POLAR depends on the chain length. The OH group is at the end of the chain. Longer chains, fewer OH groups per molar volume. All Dave meant is that what they use is less polar than some other possible choices. He's been my rep for 30 years or so.

This is conventional oil relying on Ca to keep it clean.

150,000 miles (Biosynthetic Feild Trials)

How'd the work out?

This is Red Line HP at 167,000 miles.

My truck. Ca didn't do this. Solvency did.

You believe what you like. I have about 6 motors over 30 years like the above. I'll be believe my lying eyes.

Looks great. Extremely clean. What intervals?

Prevention is likely more important than relying on an oil to clean, which will always be limited. Solvency is great, but so is oxidation resistance. You need both. Red Line's oxidation stability isn't that great. It becomes acidic in some cases rather quickly.

I'm not aware of any controlled ASTM tests that test for "cleaning" deposits or varnish. It's usually anecdotal when we hear or see of these claims. I would guess that the solvency of Red Line and oils using a good dose of certain group V base oils could potentially clean up existing deposits and varnish lesser oils could not.

I could post many pictures of immaculate engines not run on oils with ultra-high solvency.

Here is an LS3 2008 with 150,000 miles run on nothing but Mobil 1.

Edited July 18, 2023 by TunaFresh

Jettech1 · July 16, 2023

Here's a story I probably shouldn't share but it was so long ago and fortunately no one died from it, this was back in the late 80's. Anyhow there was this airline that was using ETO 2380 in the jet engines. The engineers at this company decided to switch over to Mobil Jet engine oil II. That didn't work out well in the beginning stages. The Mobil oil cleaned so well it was clogging up the oil filters and causing many in air shut downs. We were scrambling changing oil filters, I mean it was an everynight thing. Thankfully nothing ever bad happened like it didn't take an aircraft down but there is a big difference in oils and what they are made up of. But I will say, that Mobil jet engine oil cleaned the hell out of those engines...lol....what on earth was in that oil that did that I have no idea. All I know is we were scrambling changing oil filters for many months afterwards....

Jettech1 · July 17, 2023

I will say this though to make everyone feel better about flying, airlines no longer make big changes at all like that. If they do they make it on one engine with approval from the manufacturer along with the FAA. So all is good now. No worries.. I call that era back in the cowboy days where we are going to try something new and this is what we are going to do. With basically no regards to overall safety. I'm glad that era is over now. Thank you lord!!

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jettech1

VicFirth · July 17, 2023

Yeah

Edited July 18, 2023 by TunaFresh

VicFirth · July 17, 2023

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Per chemistry they do. See that twin OH at the end of this NPG Ester? POLAR. Red Line is a PAO/POE NPG Ester with an oxidation value 124. So does HPL's SAE30/40 - EC. 113 oxidation (VOA). CUMMINS Restore in my motor was also oxidation of 122 on VOA and 141 VOA CUMMINS. HPL SAE40-EC at 4:1 with Rotella T6 5W40 was 63.

IF calcium could clean, and it can't, then Group II oils from the 50's and 60's would have been legendary in cleaning ability. They were not. Not at 5K+ OCI's. Ca doesn't clean anything. It slows the rate it gets dirty by inhibiting oxidation. It can't even keep clean things clean.

The "Competition" for Zn and Phos isn't with Ca or Mg but with the OH in the ESTER. Even that is ONLY at levels used in research to find the limits. Some dingbat cherry picked the result without the data and the internet being what it is, IT STUCK. Mg sulfonate is a really good dispersant. Ca It isn't being removed to make wear work better but to STOP LSPI.

All the trash hauled out, HOW POLAR depends on the chain length. The OH group is at the end of the chain. Longer chains, fewer OH groups per molar volume. All Dave meant is that what they use is less polar than some other possible choices. He's been my rep for 30 years or so.

This is conventional oil relying on Ca to keep it clean.

150,000 miles (Biosynthetic Feild Trials)

How'd the work out?

This is Red Line HP at 167,000 miles.

My truck. Ca didn't do this. Solvency did.

You believe what you like. I have about 6 motors over 30 years like the above. I'll be believe my lying eyes.

Surprised the solvency didn't clean that paint off second spring from left. That's OEM looking clean.

Edited July 17, 2023 by TunaFresh

diyer2 · July 17, 2023

Just change the oil more often, simple.

Grumpy Bear · July 17, 2023

2 hours ago, diyer2 said:

Just change the oil more often, simple.

Can I quote you on this?

Late last week dad and I are chewing the fat and his 66 Ford 390 ultra miler came up. I found out that he did have the heads off this motor after several hundred thousand miles for what they thought was a leaking valve so grind time...they thought. As it turns out the valves were fine. It was a tight guide....ANYWAY.

Dad had a machinist do that sort of thing and dad did all the teardown and assembly. Louie, his machinist thought dad had bought a 'hot tank' when he brought the heads in for the rework. Nope. Didn't even solvent tank them. 1,000 mile OCI's on conventional Group II Trop-Artic 5W30. A Hydrotreated Solvent Dewaxed Group II kept an engine as clean as the photos above. How? It never stayed in the motor long enough to deplete the add package. At 1K miles it just never oxidized enough to precipitate. Oil was also still in paper cans and cost 20 cents a quart. And still 24 cans in a case.

The Advent of Modern Hydroprocessing - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 2 (machinerylubrication.com)

The Machine Shop was used to seeing these oils run 2K miles. The standard at the time; and needing allot of mechanical scrapping before hot vatting. A Kendal thing from the 30's. Big Oils first version and marketing campaign for extended oil changes. They are still at it today and just as wrong.

They polished the valve stems of fuel deposits and put her back together for a few hundred thousand more.

Someone reads something I lived through and tells me what I saw, learned, experienced just didn't happen. Sadly, they now outnumber us old guys that have and drown the facts in mass with the sheer volume of garbage.

Base oils today have a higher natural resistance to oxidation. They don't last longer due to the additives. But the lower levels of those additives give less safety net when they do. It's further to the cliff but it's a quicker and much farther fall over it when you reach it. Today you can do what Kendal wished it could have in the 30's. 3K is doable all day, every day. IN A SOUND MOTOR.

So @diyer2 I would like permission to start quoting your sage advice. It's a lot less effort and quite accurate.

diyer2 · July 17, 2023

You may quote me. You know I have always preferred shorter OCI's. It's just cheap insurance IMO.

Jettech1 · July 17, 2023

2 hours ago, diyer2 said:

You may quote me. You know I have always preferred shorter OCI's. It's just cheap insurance IMO.

you rock sir!! I love your input here.

diyer2 · July 18, 2023

Thanks Jettech1.

VicFirth · July 18, 2023

On 7/17/2023 at 3:31 PM, diyer2 said:

You may quote me. You know I have always preferred shorter OCI's. It's just cheap insurance IMO.

For my personal vehicles I usually try and buy the best "approved" oil I can find for my application and change it at the normal OEM interval. If I ran a business and had a fleet, I'd likely push if further based on oil analysis.

Edited July 18, 2023 by TunaFresh

Grumpy Bear · July 18, 2023

On 7/16/2023 at 6:58 PM, Jettech1 said:

Here's a story I probably shouldn't share but it was so long ago and fortunately no one died from it, this was back in the late 80's. Anyhow there was this airline that was using ETO 2380 in the jet engines. The engineers at this company decided to switch over to Mobil Jet engine oil II. That didn't work out well in the beginning stages. The Mobil oil cleaned so well it was clogging up the oil filters and causing many in air shut downs. We were scrambling changing oil filters, I mean it was an everynight thing. Thankfully nothing ever bad happened like it didn't take an aircraft down but there is a big difference in oils and what they are made up of. But I will say, that Mobil jet engine oil cleaned the hell out of those engines...lol....what on earth was in that oil that did that I have no idea. All I know is we were scrambling changing oil filters for many months afterwards....

Technical Note (functionalproducts.com)

Pay special attention to paragraph 2 and figure 1. Polarity is a range even within a type. Mobil was on the far right of ester choices in a 5 cSt oil.

Pryme · July 18, 2023

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Technical Note (functionalproducts.com)

Pay special attention to paragraph 2 and figure 1. Polarity is a range even within a type. Mobil was on the far right of ester choices in a 5 cSt oil.

So is it good or not? Come on grumpy, give it to us with a little less Albert Einstein and a little more Joe Dirt. Ha