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OCI, not when but why?


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I read the article didn’t watch the  video. During the 80s-2000s I used  Amsoil exclusively. Aside from the gas and diesels during that time. Some of the old vehicles I had the pleasure of owning like the 64 el camino, 64 gto, 69 dart gts they all had Amsoil. They all had been refreshed before I got them. One wasn’t rebuilt that was a low mileage original. A 61 Buick I bought that ended up with my father for many years. I only lost one engine in my 50 years of driving. It wasn’t oil related. Never had one use oil from the time my butt hit the seat until it didn’t anymore. I always believed don’t neutral rev, let it warm up and not missing a shift are the biggest reasons. Today modern technology much like modern child raising. Left us with lots of pampering. At least with automobiles the results usually means the possibility of extended enjoyment. The other well not so much.

Edited by KARNUT
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8 minutes ago, OnTheReel said:

Unless I missed it, it’s surprising they didn’t touch on the reduction of ZDDP in modern synthetics. Not safe to run most of these in flat tappet engines.

 

Last few links on this topic. 

 

What a SAP

 

Magnesium sulfonate additives (Journal Article) | OSTI.GOV

 

Microsoft Word - Magsul-Magnesium-Sulfonate-OB9A.docx (secureserver.net)

 

What are Low SAPS engine oils? (machinerylubrication.com)

 

exceptional-reliability_zdtp_fnweb.pdf (oronite.com)

 

Zinc Additive for Oil—How Much ZDDP is Enough (speedwaymotors.com)

 

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Interesting stuff.

 

If I may steer this one back to the heart of the topic…why I change oil (so much).
 

It’s been brought to my attention over the last year or two that I am now classified as an “OWL”. Oil Wasting Loser.

 

I changed oil at 584 miles. And then again at 2396 miles.

5008.

8715.
10,452.

12,167.

15,023.

17,807.

 

8 oil changes, soon for a 9th, in just over two years in service. To maintain the warranty it would have required only 5. Still, I feel I had very good reason to do each one. Break in. Viscosity loss. Fuel dilution. Finding the right products. Looking at the UOAs, I didn’t really leave much on the table for all these “superfluous” oil changes. Most were changed not a minute too soon.
 

So do I really waste oil, or does everyone else just waste their engines? Rhetorical question, of course.

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Federal Law requires cat converter warranty to 80,000 miles or 8 years, whichever is shorter. 

 

As the OEM's can't seem to build a motor that doesn't use oil, the burden has been laid on the doorstep of the oil industry forced by government regulation which has replied with lower levels of Sulphur and zinc bearing additives. 

 

Some issues I take with this. Motors like the Hell Cat use spring pressures that push roller cam wear to flat tappet cam levels, negating the advantage of the platform. Increased bore wear from boundary layer lubrication sliding friction that rises with increase power cylinder pressure. We are now at levels that far exceed loads imposed by motors of the 60's when SAE SJ levels of those additives were required for basic survival. Oil temperatures from extreme methods of heat control including but not limited to higher water temperatures. In addition, spot temperatures with the motor have risen due to dramatically reduced oil circulation volumes. Lastly, and compounded by the last point, the latest, now ten years, 'Resource Conserving" reductions in HTHS viscosity is removing the last barriers to wear. 

 

You can't burn the candle from both ends, no matter how long you make that candle, without consuming it entirely. :wtf:

 

Reduce EP additives, increase oil temperature (lower viscosity), increase 'load' as described by Strebeck and lower absolute HTHS viscosity. Every element of Strebeck touched in a negative way

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

Reduce EP additives, increase oil temperature (lower viscosity), increase 'load' as described by Strebeck and lower absolute HTHS viscosity. Every element of Strebeck touched in a negative way

 

 

 

 

In the simplest terms, everything is being pushed leftward on the Stribeck curve. Into boundary lubrication where unfortunately we also find there are less EP additives to support the increased metal to metal contact.

 

In theory…to increase efficiency, the OEMs wish to reduce friction in the hydrodynamic zone by lowering viscosity. Friction in that case being oil-induced drag, NOT metal to metal contact or wear. If we reverse the concept, higher viscosity moves more of the components into hydrodynamic lubrication and reduces wear, but at the expense of drag. Right?

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1 hour ago, OnTheReel said:

In the simplest terms, everything is being pushed leftward on the Stribeck curve. Into boundary lubrication where unfortunately we also find there are less EP additives to support the increased metal to metal contact.

 

In theory…to increase efficiency, the OEMs wish to reduce friction in the hydrodynamic zone by lowering viscosity. Friction in that case being oil-induced drag, NOT metal to metal contact or wear. If we reverse the concept, higher viscosity moves more of the components into hydrodynamic lubrication and reduces wear, but at the expense of drag. Right?

 

Yes. In simplest terms. 😉 

 

These newer steel and hard coated piston rings are really HARD and bore finish spectacular and it should have resulted in a huge increase in bore life. So??? They cut the crap out of the EP's and lowered viscosity, lower viscosity and we are about where we were several SAE classifications ago. Perhaps a bit worse IMHO. One step forward and a step and a half back. :mad:

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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Get out your thinking cap and calculator. 

 

(PDF) Effects of Temperature and Pressure on ZDDP (researchgate.net)

 

The Role of Extreme Pressure Additives in Gear Oil (machinerylubrication.com)

 

It's not the heat of oil due to viscosity shear nor combustion transfer and it isn't the pressure alone. It's the heat of FRICTION between the metal surfaces DURING boundary conditions that form the soap. The sulphonates do not require heat to activate. 

 

What is ZDDP - Benefits of Zinc in Oil (speedwaymotors.com)

Best Oil for Older Cars and Race Engines

Oil composition has changed greatly over the years and while a certain brand/type of oil may have worked great in the past, the reduction of zinc in oil could now spell disaster for your engine. ZDDP additive levels have gradually decreased since the 1990s in ALL mainstream oils, including diesel oils. In fact, the APIs new “SP” oil specification, set for release in 2020, is the first to not have been tested on an OHV pushrod or flat tappet engine.

For certification, API oils are tested on engines with a maximum 215 lbs. (open) valve spring pressure. Typical performance engines are equipped with valve springs over 280 lbs. (open) pressure. If you have an engine with a flat tappet cam, you need to be sure that the oil you use has enough ZDDP in it to create that layer of protection between the cam and lifters.

Don't ya hate it when you don't get the Whole Story? 
 
 

 

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New engine oil formulations have plenty of AW and EP additives.  ZDDP-ZDPT esters alone is now more of an anti oxidant post SM oil additive levels. 

Magnesium sulfonates, Borate esters, Boron nitrides, including non metallic esters provide more than enough protection. 

 

Add in fuels contamination to ANY engine oil and you get a mess that most likely was not tested for. 

 

Grumpy Bear you are as usual 20 years behind in your assumptions.  

 

Hydrodynamic lube barriers are rarely being broken in most engines with an API approved engine oil for that engine.

 

So how does this Bklabs VOA of Delo 600 ADF 15w40  meet wear specs for CK4  HD diesel engines with this add pack? Contact and cylinder pressures exceed anything discussed above including the HellCat of OnTheReels.  Rest assured the new add packs and base oils meeting DEXOS1 GEN 3 are using lower levels of the same additives you see here for HD diesels.  

Screenshot2023-11-1812_15_44.thumb.png.e2c25ef74db2a42cfbe9639a3a72a33f.png

 

 

b1ddd4ce-baab-465d-bc9c-7abece737475.pdf

Edited by customboss
add presentation of PDF without requiring download.
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Don't you hate it when on the internet you don't get the full story???  ADF 600 comes in 10w30 too same add pack lower vis. Might test this in the L3B 2.7 Turbo. 

 

image.png.2db760ca15bec544d92d22c7189182ba.png

 

 

ADF 10W30 PDSDetailPage (1).pdf

Edited by customboss
present without downloading
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Practical Wisdom

 

The Maasai know more about Lions that anyone on earth, period. And still, they don't know it all. They work with scientist on the preservation of the species. These "Scientist" after failing to reach their goals thinking they knew it all, conceded that these people's knowledge and ways with the beast were invaluable and indispensable. Working together they have had great success. [source: Sir David Attenborough]

 

Science people try to convince me that only they know the truth about PCMO/HDMO, and my non-complacence will wreak havoc on my motor and anyone I guide. 

 

Tell ya what I think. They DO KNOW the truth and yet they don't share it, not all of it. Just the parts that suit the agenda and that changes every few years. How sad is that? Rhetorical question. 

 

True, Phosphorus compounds are cat killers. No two ways around it. The current limit is set at 800 ppm. "They IMPLY "Using an oil with more will damage the cats and O2". Is that true? Hum.... Did you get the whole story? Nope. 

 

"They also imply that SAE SJ level of Zinc will corrode bearings. 

 

The Government here in the USA forces the OEM to warranty the converter for 80,000 miles or 8 years. 

 

Pepper has been on a diet of Red Line HP for the bulk of her life. Now 176K. Almost 1200 ppm Phosphorus and over 1300 ppm Zinc.  She uses a bit of oil these days. How are my cats and O2's? Stellar! 

 

So, what were you not told? The amount of oil used during testing! It's a huge amount. An amount that would have you filling the crankcase several times in one OEM recommended 7500 cycle. 

 

Practical wisdom says that taken on its face the tribologist, researchers, the government regulators and science types are lying. This is where they pick nits. They think a lie is something that is always told. They don't believe in lies of omission. I do. 

 

My 70 years on this planet and the practical knowledge and wisdom that brings will not be dismissed by an agenda whose purpose is not aligned with my best interests. It is so sad that these two groups cannot work together but truth is some like to have all the marbles even if it means they have no one to play with. 

 

I'm not the guy sorting through information to find what I LIKE. I'm the guy looking for what WORKS. 

 

image.thumb.png.5a6845b7c42bdf7629af4e25c408581c.png

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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14 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Practical Wisdom

 

The Maasai know more about Lions that anyone on earth, period. And still, they don't know it all. They work with scientist on the preservation of the species. These "Scientist" after failing to reach their goals thinking they knew it all, conceded that these people's knowledge and ways with the beast were invaluable and indispensable. Working together they have had great success. [source: Sir David Attenborough]

 

Science people try to convince me that only they know the truth about PCMO/HDMO, and my non-complacence will wreak havoc on my motor and anyone I guide. 

 

Tell ya what I think. They DO KNOW the truth and yet they don't share it, not all of it. Just the parts that suit the agenda and that changes every few years. How sad is that? Rhetorical question. 

 

True, Phosphorus compounds are cat killers. No two ways around it. The current limit is set at 800 ppm. "They IMPLY "Using an oil with more will damage the cats and O2". Is that true? Hum.... Did you get the whole story? Nope. 

 

"They also imply that SAE SJ level of Zinc will corrode bearings. 

 

The Government here in the USA forces the OEM to warranty the converter for 80,000 miles or 8 years. 

 

Pepper has been on a diet of Red Line HP for the bulk of her life. Now 176K. Almost 1200 ppm Phosphorus and over 1300 ppm Zinc.  She uses a bit of oil these days. How are my cats and O2's? Stellar! 

 

So, what were you not told? The amount of oil used during testing! It's a huge amount. An amount that would have you filling the crankcase several times in one OEM recommended 7500 cycle. 

 

Practical wisdom says that taken on its face the tribologist, researchers, the government regulators and science types are lying. This is where they pick nits. They think a lie is something that is always told. They don't believe in lies of omission. I do. 

 

My 70 years on this planet and the practical knowledge and wisdom that brings will not be dismissed by an agenda whose purpose is not aligned with my best interests. It is so sad that these two groups cannot work together but truth is some like to have all the marbles even if it means they have no one to play with. 

 

I'm not the guy sorting through information to find what I LIKE. I'm the guy looking for what WORKS. 

 

image.thumb.png.5a6845b7c42bdf7629af4e25c408581c.png

Huh? 

 

I get that you like what works but things advance and I just showed you and the readers that new oil additiive formulations like Chevron ADF 600 can protect HD diesel AND CNG engines with much higher contact pressures and cylinder pressures than our GM spark engines WITH ALMOST 0 ZDDP.   

 

I like Redline formulations too.  I could care less about brand.  

 

You as usual are nonsensical answering a direct science based fact. You get your facts from the internet NOT current science based improvements. 

 

Now you will reply with a post attacking the words I used but anyone reading this go look at that Chevron Chemistry and see that a load of ZDDP is not required for EP or  wear control anymore. 

 

I like you Brother but you are mostly a handwaver. 

 

 

 

 

 

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I believe practice more than paper. Grumpy has two high mileage vehicles. I have three. My avalanche and genesis had sub 4K mileage oil changes. The first is at 180K the second 140K no oil usage. The third odyssey will turn 140k on the trip home with 5K oil changes. No oil usage. All use different oils. I like to experiment. All synthetic. One thing is certain 5K and under oil changes in modern engines for 200K engine life and beyond is possible. 

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10 hours ago, KARNUT said:

Grumpy has two high mileage vehicles.

 

I have two current. Triple that long term. Some to 300K. If I ever get body maintenance squared away it will be much longer. I send most the scrap yard with good drivelines in them. 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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On 11/20/2023 at 10:58 AM, KARNUT said:

I believe practice more than paper. Grumpy has two high mileage vehicles. I have three. My avalanche and genesis had sub 4K mileage oil changes. The first is at 180K the second 140K no oil usage. The third odyssey will turn 140k on the trip home with 5K oil changes. No oil usage. All use different oils. I like to experiment. All synthetic. One thing is certain 5K and under oil changes in modern engines for 200K engine life and beyond is possible. 

Whats that got to do with Grumpy and OnTheReel agreeing that we have to have ZDDP to stop EP or Wear damage in our current engines? 

Grumpy can't reply to that because hes not up on the latest chemistries. Note they aren't being shared publicly let alone the internet. 

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