OCI, not when but why?

[Ubiquity]

 

 

I change it every 6 months or 5k miles wcf.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by 2015regcablongbed

[customboss]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:46 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

It's a property of oil that is not tested and does not show up on any UOA I know of

 

Used oil analysis WEAR LEVELS are the way we see if the rheological ( see AI generated online answer below to that term)  function of the oil is still capable of protecting. 

 

A trained analyst looks at the whole test including feel, touch, visuals, feedback from the owner, USING ALL  the available test results and not cherry picking a limited understanding of all testing. 

 

Reading here I see the commenters knowledge is from the internet..... not years of  training where your livlihood depends on getting the interpretation correct.  

 

The base oils are what does the majority of the work NOT THE ADDITIVES.  Otherwise we would call the additives base oils! 

 

Lubricants do " break " as swathdiver observes.  Thats "felt" when the polymer additives are damaged by gasoline in this case. Polymers that do viscosity index variation and pour point depressants that make a oil available to flow and cranking when cold. Fuel diliutes and damages those additives.  The base oil will still be there but its friction feel to a finger at room temp is NOT a good science based indicator of oil life or capability.  Might make the observer feel good.  

 

The FTIR comment above is ignorant. No I am not going to train you. I like retirement. 

 

 

Rheology is a branch of physics that deals with the deformation and flow of materials, both solids and liquids.⁰² It includes the theory ‘underlying’ the deformation and the practice of measurement.¹ Rheology focuses on the relationship between force (stretching) and flow, primarily in a fluid (liquid or gas) state but also as "soft solids" or solids under conditions in which they respond with plastic flow rather than deforming elastically.²

[KARNUT]

I’m a results oriented person. I’ve seen synthetics increase life and lower temperature. I’ve seen recently simply changing a fluid renew the smooth operation of a transmission. Contrary to the manufacturer’s instructions. I’ve learned that an increasing number of vehicles need shorter intervals of fluid changes. Contrary to what said manufactures recommended. I would have never given that a thought. Only from reading websites like these have given me reason to. Experience is the best teacher. Over anything a person gets from a book or school. 

[Grumpy Bear]

I, personally, find the marriage of experience and education of more benefit that either standing alone. Not just cars and trucks either. My work life and personal life as well. No everyone winds their watch the same. That's fine. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Without some education a person couldn't read this post or joint a forum. To be able to read everyone must agree on the alphabet and the spelling and meaning of words. Joint words to form and idea that conveys a thought. That means someone somewhere sometime had to be an EXPERT and lord the current environment does hates its experts. 

 

I get it. People, expert people, can be and often are corrupted to advance an agenda. Marketing is a science that depends on the corruption of ideas and information to advance sales and profit. Poly-Ticks ditto. Power is just as strong a motivator of corruption as cash. 

 

Thing is, if you don't agree with the social contract, education, that makes all this possible it becomes hard to wipe your own backside or leverage your experience into something anyone other than yourself can profit from. There is that profit word again. but profit means more than money and power. It also means wellbeing and ease of existence. 

 

It's really hard to understand and advance experience without some education and just as hard to get a good education without the 'fence' experience provides to keep corruption in check. Productive is the outcome that one gets from a diverse base of experience AND education. Not all education is a profitable experience just like not all experience provides an education. 

[KARNUT]

8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Without some education a person couldn't read this post or joint a forum. To be able to read everyone must agree on the alphabet and the spelling and meaning of words. Joint words to form and idea that conveys a thought. That means someone somewhere sometime had to be an EXPERT and lord the current environment does hates its experts. 

 

I get it. People, expert people, can be and often are corrupted to advance an agenda. Marketing is a science that depends on the corruption of ideas and information to advance sales and profit. Poly-Ticks ditto. Power is just as strong a motivator of corruption as cash. 

 

Thing is, if you don't agree with the social contract, education, that makes all this possible it becomes hard to wipe your own backside or leverage your experience into something anyone other than yourself can profit from. There is that profit word again. but profit means more than money and power. It also means wellbeing and ease of existence. 

 

It's really hard to understand and advance experience without some education and just as hard to get a good education without the 'fence' experience provides to keep corruption in check. Productive is the outcome that one gets from a diverse base of experience AND education. Not all education is a profitable experience just like not all experience provides an education. 

Of course basic education is a must. Practical life experiences has served me better than any advanced educational advice. It’s usually tainted by their monetary gain. I can say that regarding doctors to bankers. This pill will make you feel better. Just pay that loan out for 30 years. Put all your money in Enron. Stocks are better that a rent house. It’s ok to build here it never floods. Educated people told my father he’d never amount to anything. He revolutionized two industries and was married 58 years. So when experts say we’re going to be iced over in 3 decades in the seventies. Or this vaccine will keep you from getting sick. Or electric vehicles cause less pollution. And paying more taxes will cure our problems. Life experiences VS educational experts advise. No contest. 

[diyer2]

"Expert" is an over used misconception used by the media to make the public think the Expert is credible. BS.

[Grumpy Bear]

Oh, I've met my share of idiot Ph.D.'s. and I agree with diyer2, expert is an overused or perhaps a misunderstood/wrongly defined word. I also agree with Karnut that at some point more education can be a hindrance. I also think that 'balance' is the hardest thing a human can try to do. And lastly, I'm positive that only humans use expertise to mislead and manipulate situations. One that comes to mind is, "Four out of Five Doctors recommend menthol cigarettes for you sore throat". Or the fella that invented TEL pouring it on his skin and inhaling fumes to promote Ethyl Gasoline while he was being treated for lead poisoning. 

 

But we also benefit from education when properly applied. Your refrigerator contains a mountain of science and expertise few are willing to live without. The engines that power your business and power plants that provide you electricity all require expertise and advanced education. The computer you are reading this post on and will certainly reply on. 

 

But there are also many practical trades one can learn without advanced education. Plumber, ROW...landscape.

 

And the one no one ever mentions... spiritual need. Matt 5:3. Thats a lifetime education. 

 

This thread however is concerned with OCI's and the way we determine when the oil that protects your equipment is no longer doing its job. I could have as easily asked, "When do you change your underwear and why?" I imagine there is an expert for that as well. 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

27 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Oh, I've met my share of idiot Ph.D.'s. and I agree with diyer2, expert is an overused or perhaps a misunderstood/wrongly defined word. I also agree with Karnut that at some point more education can be a hindrance. I also think that 'balance' is the hardest thing a human can try to do. And lastly, I'm positive that only humans use expertise to mislead and manipulate situations. One that comes to mind is, "Four out of Five Doctors recommend menthol cigarettes for you sore throat". Or the fella that invented TEO pouring it on his skin and inhaling fumes to promote Ethyl Gasoline while he was being treated for lead poisoning. 

 

But we also benefit from education when properly applied. Your refrigerator contains a mountain of science and expertise few are willing to live without. The engines that power your business and power plants that provide you electricity all require expertise and advanced education. The computer you are reading this post on and will certainly reply on. 

 

But there are also many practical trades one can learn without advanced education. Plumber, ROW...landscape.

 

And the one no one ever mentions... spiritual need. Matt 5:3. Thats a lifetime education. 

 

This thread however is concerned with OCI's and the way we determine when the oil that protects your equipment is no longer doing its job. I could have as easily asked, "When do you change your underwear and why?" I imagine there is an expert for that as well. 

 

Short story, I have a bunch. After 15 years of building his business my father was able to fulfill a dream. He never finished the 8th grade, dyslexia we later learned. He bought a farm raising heifers and showing horses. He depended on lawyers, accountants and bankers who were supposed to be friends. Years later we learned they conspired to pad the cost. He practically begged my to become a lawyer. The only thing that saved me was the crash of the mid seventies. Our starting over in Texas. Funny how government rules and regulations help our business. Shortly after moving to Texas the DOT mandate clearing pipelines so plane can spot a leak. At the time we had the only equipment that could do it efficiently. Leading us to changing our business model from a clearing service to a manufacturing business. The idea for the modification of the equipment came from a middle school dropout. Design by my brother with demonstrating and teaching by me. 

[Grumpy Bear]

 

I had a counselor in high school that played with things to calm his nerves. Used pennies like a person would use a worry stone. Nuts on bolts, whatever and well before fidget spinners. So, question; Can you wear a penny out by carrying it in your pocket? 

 

If you are that guy that kept his first coin in his pocket for a lifetime it may look like the one of the left and you experience would tell you, they wear out in a man's lifetime. If another fella kept that same coin in his pocket wrapped in a fold of a wax paper pouch it may look like the one on the right and his experience would tell him they do not wear out in one's lifetime. But they do wear. They would agree wear happens and disagree on how long it takes. 

 

Personal experience is just that. Personal. It reflects you like a mirror. 

 

Yes! It will wear as the above coins show. But if you rub on it how long would that take? How long would it take if the coin were covered in petroleum jelly or wrapped in wax paper? Finding those answers is 'science' in its crudest form. In its most exacting form, all variables possible are eliminated and rate and conditions ascertained. Methods developed to arrest the wear. 

 

The question isn't if it this is true but, is it useful. IF your expectations are the lowest bar set, then your experience will serve you well. But if your expectations exceed the bar then your experience will fail you when science would have raised that bar with foreknowledge. 

 

We argue when we insist that everyone needs to accept the SAME bar.  

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

I had a counselor in high school that played with things to calm his nerves. Used pennies like a person would use a worry stone. Nuts on bolts, whatever and well before fidget spinners. So, question; Can you wear a penny out by carrying it in your pocket? 

 

If you are that guy that kept his first coin in his pocket for a lifetime it may look like the one of the left and you experience would tell you, they wear out in a man's lifetime. If another fella kept that same coin in his pocket wrapped in a fold of a wax paper pouch it may look like the one on the right and his experience would tell him they do not wear out in one's lifetime. But they do wear. They would agree wear happens and disagree on how long it takes. 

 

Personal experience is just that. Personal. It reflects you like a mirror. 

 

Yes! It will wear as the above coins show. But if you rub on it how long would that take? How long would it take if the coin were covered in petroleum jelly or wrapped in wax paper? Finding those answers is 'science' in its crudest form. In its most exacting form, all variables possible are eliminated and rate and conditions ascertained. Methods developed to arrest the wear. 

 

The question isn't if it this is true but, is it useful. IF your expectations are the lowest bar set, then your experience will serve you well. But if your expectations exceed the bar then your experience will fail you when science would have raised that bar with foreknowledge. 

 

We argue when we insist that everyone needs to accept the SAME bar.  

 

 

Reminds me of a motorcycle TV show I watched years ago. SOA. One guy a nervous type ended up losing his fingers, fidgeting. I’ll have to leave it there.

[customboss]

After tiring of working for others I decided to try to run a lab and do automotive, aviation oil analysis. I was young and realized that having a degree in aero engineering didn't mean squat except give me a chance as a army pilot of flying for big boys.  So I did BOTH concurrently.  

 

Running a business thats based on science means you must be able to do standardized science to a level that opinion means shat.   So I had to find an angle to set myself apart from the labs and their slow laborious approach to oil analysis.

 

Also I had to figure out what consumers wanted that high level R&D analysis would not generate income for my family. So while I flew professionally I started interpreting all the labs data that mom and pop could not figure out.  I also did expert witness work in courtrooms that had to stand up against judicial oversight with the risk of losing my business if I messed up.  

 

Owning a business you meet a market where IT is at not what you want the market to be.  Negotiating with large labs as you grow because you realize you cannot compete on the lab work was tough.  That negotiating took years to develop. Having intellectual property no one else does is all that set me apart and knowing when the lab messed up and didn't give good data.  Thats not small stuff trust me.  

 

Having a degree doesn't mean a thing in a chosen field if you can't do the science. Having opinions and not being able to do the science is common without advanced training, mine came from military. Practical and held to standard. I got the degree later and for flying not for oil analysis.  You need to be trained of you cannot do tribology. Its too complex and too much to know from regurgitating internet data.   Thanks to Uncle Sam I was able to compete at masters degree chem engineering levels without a degree.  

 

The crying about education and Phd's sounds like a bunch of whiny chemist techs who regret not going to college! Doing is what I care about and able to do what Grumpy, Karnut, diyer2 did in business and production succcessfully.  

 

I stay in my lane, if I don't know I will tell you. If I do know I am not gonna apologize because you don't.  

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

19 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

The question isn't if it is true but rather, is it useful.

 

 

[KARNUT]

21 minutes ago, customboss said:

After tiring of working for others I decided to try to run a lab and do automotive, aviation oil analysis. I was young and realized that having a degree in aero engineering didn't mean squat except give me a chance as a army pilot of flying for big boys.  So I did BOTH concurrently.  

 

Running a business thats based on science means you must be able to do standardized science to a level that opinion means shat.   So I had to find an angle to set myself apart from the labs and their slow laborious approach to oil analysis.

 

Also I had to figure out what consumers wanted that high level R&D analysis would not generate income for my family. So while I flew professionally I started interpreting all the labs data that mom and pop could not figure out.  I also did expert witness work in courtrooms that had to stand up against judicial oversight with the risk of losing my business if I messed up.  

 

Owning a business you meet a market where IT is at not what you want the market to be.  Negotiating with large labs as you grow because you realize you cannot compete on the lab work was tough.  That negotiating took years to develop. Having intellectual property no one else does is all that set me apart and knowing when the lab messed up and didn't give good data.  Thats not small stuff trust me.  

 

Having a degree doesn't mean a thing in a chosen field if you can't do the science. Having opinions and not being able to do the science is common without advanced training, mine came from military. Practical and held to standard. I got the degree later and for flying not for oil analysis.  You need to be trained of you cannot do tribology. Its too complex and too much to know from regurgitating internet data.   Thanks to Uncle Sam I was able to compete at masters degree chem engineering levels without a degree.  

 

The crying about education and Phd's sounds like a bunch of whiny chemist techs who regret not going to college! Doing is what I care about and able to do what Grumpy, Karnut, diyer2 did in business and production succcessfully.  

 

I stay in my lane, if I don't know I will tell you. If I do know I am not gonna apologize because you don't.  

 

 

 

Perhaps I should clarify. Every time we tried different fluids per my brothers request, we would send out for analysis. He was and is the shop guy and did the research. The rest of us were in the field feeling and seeing the results much like Grumpy did with his problem vehicle. The experts said you could do one thing, field research said otherwise. Of course life of a vehicle or equipment could be interpreted on different levels. Most people fit into got to have it mode when it comes to vehicles. 100K miles is lifetime to them. I did fit that model. So the manufacturer ( the experts) would advertise low maintenance cost with extended drains on everything. In reality at 100K miles is when the maintenance costs go up. If you follow the manufacturer models. So by by vehicle. My lifestyle changed with retirement and miles driven change too. The idea of going past 100K miles became attractive. So I joined websites like these. Learning through other peoples trail and error how to get longevity. And the simple way all said and done follow the severe service schedule. You guys can sweat the analysis and beat it to death. I’ll learn from it and see if need to adjust my maintenance schedule. That’s the reason I joined the site in the first place.

[customboss]

27 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Perhaps I should clarify. Every time we tried different fluids per my brothers request, we would send out for analysis. He was and is the shop guy and did the research. The rest of us were in the field feeling and seeing the results much like Grumpy did with his problem vehicle. The experts said you could do one thing, field research said otherwise. Of course life of a vehicle or equipment could be interpreted on different levels. Most people fit into got to have it mode when it comes to vehicles. 100K miles is lifetime to them. I did fit that model. So the manufacturer ( the experts) would advertise low maintenance cost with extended drains on everything. In reality at 100K miles is when the maintenance costs go up. If you follow the manufacturer models. So by by vehicle. My lifestyle changed with retirement and miles driven change too. The idea of going past 100K miles became attractive. So I joined websites like these. Learning through other peoples trail and error how to get longevity. And the simple way all said and done follow the severe service schedule. You guys can sweat the analysis and beat it to death. I’ll learn from it and see if need to adjust my maintenance schedule. That’s the reason I joined the site in the first place.

I agree fully. If it doesn’t work where the rubber meets the road why do it!