OCI, not when but why?

VicFirth · April 16

11 hours ago, customboss said:

If it gets to the valves it sounds like it could. If you mean as a spray or short residence time use it might or it might not depending on the chemistry. If has a heat activated synthetic chemistry that mimics more expensive esterified stuff it may be too slow on cold intake cleaning etc.

Good point I didn't think of that. Could very well be that it needs heat to work which would render it useless on the intake valves.

Grumpy Bear · April 17

Don't get carried away!

How long is an Extended Interval?

Polyalphaolefins FAQ | Chevron Phillips Chemical (cpchem.com)

[Quote from link] We have measured a 25 percent improvement in oxidation induction times simply by decreasing the test temperature by 10 degrees. [Close quote]

Where did that10 degrees come from?

[Quote] I’ve heard that PAOs can reduce the operating temperature of equipment. How does this work?

That’s a hot topic! There are several systems where we have observed a reduction in the operating temperature compared to mineral oils, including transmissions, engines and heat transfer applications. Why does this happen? We believe it can be understood by looking at the thermal conductivity and specific heat of the base oils.

Thermal conductivity is the measure of the ability to conduct heat. Specific heat is the amount of heat per unit mass required to raise the temperature one degree Celsius. The chart below shows that the PAO has a higher specific heat, which means that the PAO is better at absorbing heat. Furthermore, thermal conductivity at 300°F for PAO 6 is 0.085 compared to 0.071 Btu•ft/(h•ft2•°F) for an equiviscous mineral oil, which means that the PAO can conduct 20 percent more heat than the mineral oil for better heat dissipation.

Chemical kinetics tell us that if you reduce the temperature, you will reduce the reaction rate. Oxidative and other lubricant degradation mechanisms would follow the same trend. Therefore, reducing the temperature is generally beneficial in extending the life of a lubricant. [Close quote]

Is that true?

Yes!

Quick note for the knuckleheads: Oil temperature in a water-cooled motors is not regulated by the water temperature alone. It's regulated by the water temperature and the LOAD. You can change bulk oil temperature as much with 30 mph of speed as 30 degrees of thermostat and abundance of radiator 'reserve'.

[Quote] Today’s lubricants demand better oxidative stability. What advantages do Synfluid® PAOs have?

Oxidative stability is a critical property enabling oils to resist sludge formation and degradation while in service. PAO-based lubricants offer a significant advantage in oxidative stability. The rotary bomb bench test is a strong predictor of how base oils will perform in many automotive and industrial applications. The chart below shows rotary bomb (ASTM D2272) results between Synfluid^® PAOs and some mineral oils.

Synfluid^® PAOs have been carefully designed to yield oxidative induction times greater than 2,500 minutes with 0.5 percent antioxidant. This is a far greater benefit than can be achieved from other base oils.

PAOs also resist viscosity increases upon oxidation, which is important in sequence IIIE and VW T4 engine tests. These combined benefits provide the properties required for severe service applications and extended drain intervals.

The advantages offered in oxidative stability, coupled with superior volatility and low-temperature viscometrics, clearly demonstrate that Synfluid^® PAOs are the highest-quality base oils available in the industry.

And:

Pressures in the lubricants industry demand higher oxidative stability. What is the key to optimizing fluid performance when using Synfluid® PAOs?

There are indeed pressures in the industry that require improved oxidative stability. Engine oil tests such as VW T-4 and Seq. III F challenge formulators, and their suppliers, to step up performance for the next generation of engine oils. The relationship between antioxidants (A.O.) and PAO plays an integral part of meeting the challenge for top-tier oils.

Regarding the A.O. package, an optimal PAO formulation will be different than that of mineral oils. For instance, a 100 percent aminic antioxidant package will yield the best performance in the Rbot test for PAO. In contrast, a mineral oil will require various antioxidants depending upon the structural makeup.

This chart illustrates another benefit of using Synfluid^® PAOs at increased antioxidant treat rates. Using the same PAO, we achieved 15 percent higher oxidative stability by increasing the A.O. concentration from 0.5 percent to 1 percent.

The key to unlocking the full potential of your formulation requires using the right combination and concentration of antioxidant and Synfluid^® PAO. [Close quote]

Okay, so how long is an Extended Oil Interval?

Well, it isn't double unless your point of reference is a 2K Conventional oil.

Grumpy Bear · April 18

How about PAO vs Group III low temperature performance?

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR YOUR ENGINE?

You may already know that most engine wear occurs at start-up, at the moment when the moving parts need to start moving while the oil is not yet pumping. Up to 75% of wear, over the lifetime of an engine, is attributable to this start-up phase. Here we are talking about so-called boundary lubrication. The crankshaft and camshaft(s) are normally kept 'floating' by the accumulated lubrication film when the shafts are running, but when the engine is off, they 'sink' down and rest on the bearings. The moment the engine is started, there is metal-to-metal contact. This is obviously only brief, usually not even half a revolution of the axle before a lubricating film is built up, but it does contribute to wear. Research has shown that a car equipped with a Start-Stop system starts its engine as much as 3 times more often than a car without such a system.

Start-Stop system: does it really wear out your engine components? (eurol.com)

Edited April 18 by Grumpy Bear

VicFirth · April 23

Alright so this is what I have been able to find out about Restore and Protect.

I was able to speak to someone in the industry who is friends with a guy that left Valvoline a bout a year ago. He asked him about this product. In a nutshell:

"I asked both of them about it, the short answer is no. The long answer is they’re playing around with the detergent / dispersant mix. By reacting propoxylated amines with different organic acids you can change the results here and there.

Overall, it’s not anything different from any other major is doing. And by doing it, you can still give your AW plating issues. As that’s the bigger picture thing here. Of course, I don’t think anything will come of it. But think about it this way:

The more Detergent you have, with their polar head on the surfaces, the less space you have for AW package plating on the surface. This is why oil additive chemistry is always a balance / trade off. You just can’t load up with AW, otherwise you’ll get corrosion and varnish build up, along with a fast oxidation. If you load up with DI, you’ll have increase wear because you won’t have the plating affect. Etc."

Edited April 23 by VicFirth

VicFirth · April 23

My thoughts would be to stick with the higher end oils with known ester/AN content for greater solvency.

customboss · April 23

1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

My thoughts would be to stick with the higher end oils with known ester/AN content for greater solvency.

No free lunch. However like removes like in chemistry. The fuel additives are gunking up our DI engine oil control rings and backside of valves.

VicFirth · April 26

The more I read into the current Mobil 1 Triple Action formulation, the more I think they're using ANs, which is a good thing. A XOM patent from 2018 suggests this as well. If you look at the current version of Mobil 1, the additive levels are very very low.

ANs tank your pour point and Mobil 1 Triple Action 5w30 has a pour point of only -33C. That's not that great and suggests to me they're using AN in a good amount, which also aligns with the patent. Also consider that Mobil and King Industries are the only two companies in the US that make them.

This is the High Mileage Mobil 1 Triple, which has even a tad bit more of Ca and Mg but look how low it is. I'm thinking the ANs are what keep the engine clean.

Grumpy Bear · April 26

1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

Mobil 1 Triple Action 5w30 has a pour point of only -33C.

You sure about that? It couldn't carry the 5W* label.

customboss · April 26

34 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You sure about that? It couldn't carry the 5W* label.

Goodness Grumpy get off the Chyna webs.

VicFirth · April 26

I got if from here:

customboss · April 26

D97 pour point is not MRV or CCS values obviously.

Grumpy Bear · April 26

3 hours ago, VicFirth said:

I got if from here:

Yep I see that. Read: Engine Oil Pour Point and Its Significance: A Comprehensive Guide - TechieScience It will explain the ASTM D97 pour point test.

Then explain how a fluid that is solid at -33C can still pass the MRV at -35C.

Are the facts different in English? No, AND they are cheaper in Chinese. FREE The most current J300 the SAE want's a hundred dollars for. Right :idiot:

Oh, and I will accept any reasonable explanation submitted with source.

customboss · April 26

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Then explain how a fluid that is solid at -33C can still pass the MRV at -35C.

Grumpy, addititives make electric motors rotate engines that have no business firing when the oil is gelatinous, not solid. It's all about the chem structure of the liquid and its phase at a given temp. Including gelation that will cause aeration most severely if it does start.

Why do we have to keep going over this over and over.

Understood on the cost, its why we outsourced this country to China for 45 years. Sources? My brain.

Grumpy Bear · April 26

19 minutes ago, customboss said:

Why do we have to keep going over this over and over.

Maybe because it doesn't make sense.....

It's pumpable at -35 but solid at -33.

If it won't pour, it won't pump.

:idiot:

HPL 5W30 Premium Plus. A good dose of AN's in this one.

HPL PP line is full of AN's

customboss · April 26

11 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Maybe because it doesn't make sense.....

It's pumpable at -35 but solid at -33.

If it won't pour, it won't pump.

HPL 5W30 Premium Plus. A good dose of AN's in this one.

HPL PP line is full of AN's

You were talking about CCS and MRV it can crank but it won't pump then we agree. Why are you so confusing? On purpose? Just because pour point is a higher temp doesn't mean it won't allow an engine to spin in it. YOU are the one who stated -33 pour point is solid, not anyone else here. Are you arguing with self? A temp below pour point is NOT EQUAL to solid.