OCI, not when but why?

VicFirth · March 15

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Vic, If you want cleaning and lubricity you need surfactant action regardless of the chemistry. Redline looks great because HPL and others do not publish their formulations in detail.

POE is a generalization its not the specific chemistry.

Remember its the total chemistry not just one aspect.

Yes that is a great point. Total chemistry is what matters most.

I have read though that you can get away with higher levels of additives when you have that solvency built in, like HPL or Red Line. Essentially clean as you go. I am not sure how true that is.

customboss · March 15

10 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

Yes that is a great point. Total chemistry is what matters most.

I have read though that you can get away with higher levels of additives when you have that solvency built in, like HPL or Red Line. Essentially clean as you go. I am not sure how true that is.

That exactly how the original formulator there in 1979 decided to make it. It's an old chemistry that works well.

BTW are you a drummer?

customboss · March 15

The secret is not the engine oil on OCI its how the engine sucks air, fuels the charge, seals the charge, and combusts the charge. Everything else in a healthy engine is secondary. If you burn clean to begin with the EGR and VVT does less work moves less crap into recycling all that.

VicFirth · March 15

1 hour ago, customboss said:

That exactly how the original formulator there in 1979 decided to make it. It's an old chemistry that works well.

BTW are you a drummer?

I play the drums. My brother and sister are musicians - trained. I'm self-taught and play as a hobby.

Grumpy Bear · March 16

@VicFirth Snippets of information. Self-Important states in your quote below:

9 hours ago, VicFirth said:

POE is a generalization its not the specific chemistry.

What did I cut and paste? Here, let me do it again.

What does that say?

Is self-important trying to teach something or needing to be right. :wtf:

This constantly shoveling crap into the drinking water.......... is :bs:

Solubility

A solvent is something capable of dissolving another substance. We call the substance (i.e. salt) that is dissolved in a solvent (i.e. water) the solute.

POE is a solvent. All of them. All polar. What is a detergent? Polar and ionic sometimes. What can a solvent do a detergent cannot? DISOLVE anything. It can only surround it and or emulsifiy it and carry it away.

Put salt in water and what happens? The salt dissolves into the water. Sprinkle some pepper onto the surface of water. Now add a drop of detergent and observe. What is does not do is dissolve the pepper but neither does the water. Not today and not next year.

What are the lessons. Solvents cannot dissolve everything, only 'like'. Detergents can dissolve nothing. they can emulsify or encapsulate and carry away.

Much of what "they" call detergents in oil are not even that. They are acid neutralizers. Thier action as a detergent is six degrees of separation. By neutralizing the acidic precursors of oxidation and nitration, they prevent particle formation, and the dispersants prevent amalgamation.

The natural ability of Group III/III+, PAO, POE and AN to resist oxidation and the polarity of the polar components, POE and AN to put them in solution is both detergent and dispersant action in and of itself.

Dry oils, Group III/III+/PAO have zero solvency, zero dispersancy, zero detergency.

With dry oils the play is to change it before it precipitates. Even if that could be done it will not prevent oil varnish which is the natural byproduct of oxidation. Dry oils cannot solve out fuel precipitated varnish and lacquers.

Know what the oxidation number of CUMMINS Restore is? Over 140! HPL SAE30/40 EC? over 120.

Red Line at 90-120...

Look, it isn't that it can't clean. It's that all these polar oils take TIME to do their jobs. Like 30 to 40K miles and when you have a stuck set of rings you don't have that much time before the bore is shot. Try living with a motor than needs a polar oil to free the rings and uses a quart per thousand of a $15 to $20 dollar oil. It's why I don't consider it, Red Line, a cleaning oil.

Best way is to not need a cleaning oil period is to never let it get dirty. So... I use Red Line HP and change if often anyway. I didn't in Dizzy and EVERYONE knows what happened.

But ANY of the other polar oils would do the same thing from a cleaning standpoint. AMSOIL SS, Torco SR-5, Motul V3000, HPL, MPT30K, Penrite. Even Mobil 1 Euro FS.

diyer2 · March 16

Remember this saying "Pay me now or pay me later."

Fluid services following the severe duty schedule is worth the cost. Cheap to me if you do it yourself.

Grumpy Bear · March 16

12 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Remember this saying "Pay me now or pay me later."

Fluid services following the severe duty schedule is worth the cost. Cheap to me if you do it yourself.

Absolutely true. This can even be done with a mineral oil on a short enough cycle.

Grumpy Bear · March 16

Separate the Hype from the Reality

Esters will submit to hydrolysis. The reverse reaction of creating the ester. There are many esters, and the chemist has control over the ease this reaction takes place. But because it CAN happen and HAS happened in the early days, some believe it WILL happen regardless. Esters don't do this spontaneously. It requires conditions to be met and I'm not explaining them all here and now but conditions that are not likely in a healthy motor. Esters used in TODAY'S oils are highly RESISTANT to this process. Almost impervious.

Why would an educated person believe the guy who is designing and blending and has control over this situation chose to use a vulnerable species? He won't; but it will not keep people from making the claim.

We used to have SA oils and yet not one claims todays SP oils suffer the same issues they did 125 years ago!

Those that promote this idea have an agenda. I don't always understand what that is but in some cases a marketer will make this claim to justify the use of cheaper less effective base oil and claim some secret sauce will make up the deficiency.

This choosing a single irrelevant but true fact to frame a thing that isn't likely as inevitable is what marketing does. It is what those that build themselves up by tearing others down do.

The industry doesn't help themselves with ridiculous claims either. Syn4Life claims if you use their oil, you NEVER have to change it. :bs: Mobil 1 EP claims UP TO 20,000-mile guaranteed protection. :bs: They even tell you the claim is :bs: with the qualifier UP TO. Much like the OEM claims X miles NORMAL USE OCI and hidden in the fine print or secondary table severe use recommendations. Never promoted. NEVER.

Same claim is made for esters competing for the metal surface with AW adds. So, the blender and chemist are idiots? CAN, yes. Do? Not if the proper selections are made and they ARE. Ditto ZDDP WILL corrode your yellow metals. OMG these blenders haven't got a clue. :crackup: Wait! You need a tribologist and a special secret lab

This industry learns by its mistakes. Just like people because the industry IS people. The switch from calcium to magnesium didn't happen to prevent LSPI it happened in response to it. But it did happen. Phosphorus reduction didn't happen because motors were corroding yellow metals, it happened in response to CAT failures of early pellet converters. IT's moved on. We should to.

The blender knows what he's doing. The government throwing curve balls, not so much. The rarely paint the box.

:rant:

Edited March 16 by Grumpy Bear

VicFirth · March 16

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

@VicFirth Snippets of information. Self-Important states in your quote below:

But ANY of the other polar oils would do the same thing from a cleaning standpoint. AMSOIL SS, Torco SR-5, Motul V3000, HPL, MPT30K, Penrite. Even Mobil 1 Euro FS.

Those are all good choices. I wish Amsoil was a bit more transparent about what they use. Not to the extent of giving away anything in particular, but along the lines of HPL, Red Line and Torco. However, they do give you the most testing data.

AMSOIL Crushes Sequence IIIH Engine Test - AMSOIL Blog

Very clean piston even after being subjected to a double length IIIH test.

Edited March 16 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · March 17

8 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Those are all good choices. I wish Amsoil was a bit more transparent about what they use. Not to the extent of giving away anything in particular, but along the lines of HPL, Red Line and Torco. However, they do give you the most testing data.

AMSOIL Crushes Sequence IIIH Engine Test - AMSOIL Blog

Very clean piston even after being subjected to a double length IIIH test.

Did ya catch the double speak in that?

[quote]It subjects a candidate oil to 90 hours of use at 304ºF (151ºC) in a Chrysler* engine, much hotter than normal operation to really challenge the oil. The intent is to screen oils for their ability to maintain protection under the severe conditions today’s smaller, hotter-running turbocharged engines present.[end quote]

Which is it? Much hotter than normal or protection under the severe conditions today’s smaller, hotter-running turbocharged engines present.

They are implying one is equal to the other. Not.

Oh, I get accelerated testing but testing in/to conditions a motor never sees tells me nothing.

Here's the problem. The deposits are 'laid down' during the cycling of heating and cooling. 90 hours continuous doesn't come close. It will burn the crap out of the oil without leaving much a a deposit. If you what an ash test just autoclave it. :idiot: Kind of how I feel about the Shell Four Ball. Useless. But hey, ...........

Marketing

OnTheReel · March 19

Saw this pop up on another site. 2016 5.3. 404k miles, original engine. Amazing things happen when you change your oil more than recommended.

Edited March 19 by OnTheReel

VicFirth · March 19

15 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Saw this pop up on another site. 2016 5.3. 404k miles, original engine. Amazing things happen when you change your oil more than recommended.

You can also change your oil too often, which can cause a spike in wear during the seating phase.

Grumpy Bear · March 19

1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

You can also change your oil too often, which can cause a spike in wear during the seating phase.

It is the general nature of wear and not actually tied to then number of oil changes. That spike happens regardless. It's height and breadth can be and is influenced by many factors, but to frequent, isn't one of them.

Title (mahle.com)

VicFirth · March 19

good to know gracias.

OnTheReel · March 19

I don’t know the guy, but supposedly it is done every 4k, which is probably like once a month at the rate he runs. Not excessive but more frequent than GM calls for. I’m sure the highway miles help a lot too. But it’s still impressive for any motor let alone one with AFM and all the other stuff people say is faulty, bad metallurgy, etc.