OCI, not when but why?

VicFirth · March 14

Noack: 5.3%

Oxidation: 90

Grumpy Bear · March 14

21 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Noack: 5.3%

Oxidation: 90

My bread and butter go to for years.

Grumpy Bear · March 14

On 2/20/2024 at 4:26 PM, customboss said:

Doesn't matter ( how many times do I have to remind you of this????) when testing a IC engine that pours NOx into the oil via all the normal methods from combustion chamber including EGR and VVT effects. Baseline nitration means nothing after you fire the engine.

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard a PRO say. Reason? When the baseline is 5 to 11 in new oil, and you are condemning at 10 units you are arguing that the background 'disappears' the second you fire the motor. If you're not, then 10 units (JOAP) is unobtainable as the baseline is near or above the cell reference of ZERO.

Look familiar? At 10 units this oil is condemned on an additional 3 units. Another oil at 5 is condemned at 5 additional and one that is 11 was condemned before it was charged.

POURING in more salt in the stew doesn't not make the salt already present 'irrelevant'.

If I wouldn't have let you out of the doghouse, I would have never seen this, and I cannot believe you respond to a person who's not 'seeing' your post. :wtf:

Every time I let you out.... :idiot: Lord your stubborn. Back in you go.

Edited March 14 by Grumpy Bear

customboss · March 15

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard a PRO say. Reason? When the baseline is 5 to 11 in new oil, and you are condemning at 10 units you are arguing that the background 'disappears' the second you fire the motor. If you're not, then 10 units (JOAP) is unobtainable as the baseline is near or above the cell reference of ZERO.

Look familiar? At 10 units this oil is condemned on an additional 3 units. Another oil at 5 is condemned at 5 additional and one that is 11 was condemned before it was charged.

POURING in more salt in the stew doesn't not make the salt already present 'irrelevant'.

If I wouldn't have let you out of the doghouse, I would have never seen this, and I cannot believe you respond to a person who's not 'seeing' your post.

Every time I let you out.... Lord your stubborn. Back in you go.

You are dense. Respectfully of course. What doghouse? Have no idea what you speak of.

I respond to what is written. I was paid to do what you think you can do and I did it for 43 years.

You need to get out more often Marty. I notice you borrowed the meme I shared on the joke thread and made it your signature.......Ha.

Grumpy Bear · March 15

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

.........when testing a IC engine that pours NOx into the oil via all the normal methods from combustion chamber including EGR and VVT effects.

Above quote again, customboss, and another ridiculous statement.

Tell me all ya want. It's crap.

Must not know how EGR works. Passive or otherwise? EGR REDUCES NOx. It is its entire purpose. And it doesn't pour anything but a regulated flow of exhaust gas back into the COMBUSTION chamber, that for all practical purpose is sealed by the rings/oil film from the crankcase to a fraction of POURING. Why? To lower the combustion chamber temperature to BELOW the REACTION INITIATION TEMPERATURE. Also, a passive AFM by shorting the chamber of O2 thus trimming fuel and lowering HC and further trimming NOx. It doesn't LOAD the oil with NO or N20 or even soot in a gasoline or alky motor that runs oil and jacket water hot enough to destroy all species of the organic acids that could form.

Blowby is LOWER when active as BMEP is lower.

I may not be a college edumacated certified tribologist guy, but organic chemistry and engine design is in my wheelhouse.

customboss · March 15

On 3/12/2024 at 2:13 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

Got ya on NG fuel. I was thinking broader terms. Mechanics of the processes. Fuel will certainly have a huge impact.

I found this paragraph most interesting:

[Quote] Oil film thickness varies over the piston stroke length. Mid-stroke the piston speed is high and the rings travel on the liner surface in a fully hydrodynamic regime. As the piston slows down and enters either turnaround zone, the hydrodynamic effect lessens and the piston rings start pressing themselves through the oil film. The buffering effect will prevent the rings from reaching the liner before the piston starts moving again and the rings re-enter the hydrodynamic regime. The minimum required oil film thickness is determined by the amount of buffering that is needed. In practice, a partly flooded lubrication regime provides sufficient buffering effect to avoid top dead center ring/liner wear and will help to improve combustion chamber sealing and to reduce inertial throw-off (reduce oil consumption). [End Quote]

When I see this on the thrust side, I think the MOFT isn't being met.

Hone hatching has been 'polished' away. (Above)

Different from scoring a cylinder.

Looks like a lock got loose

Those Nat Gas cylinders post service and cleaned for presentation are more likely deposits developed wear from stuck or damaged rings from deposits than simply MOFT issues.

customboss · March 15

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

EGR REDUCES NOx

Out the tailpipe. NOT IN THE ENGINE OIL. I have dementia and you are stressing me.....LOL

Don't be threatened by me. I am trying to help the readers here that you might be confusing.

customboss · March 15

On 2/7/2024 at 7:21 AM, VicFirth said:

It's interesting that the Premium Blue Restore Gen2 (came out Feb of 2023) is based on high solvency base oils along with PAO where as the Restore and Protect is III based with unknown base oil/additives doing the cleaning.....could be AN? They have a good slug of boron but I don't think that's the cleaning mechanism.

The Premium Blue Restore is also more potent as they claim one oil change will remove all carbon deposits. Different market/purpose though.

base oils ~50% POE. ~30% PAO for original formula. ~20% additives. New formula is most likely GRP III base oils with a very strong bio based POE of some sort I am guessing.

Grumpy Bear · March 15

How is it that people believe that the first day they met me was the first day of my life? I had no existence before them. But hey, don't listen to me. What could I know.

I can't even read the replies but I'm guessing three in random fire, I might have hit a nerve.

Lubricants | Free Full-Text | Implementation of Nitration Processes in Artificial Ageing for Closer-to-Reality Simulation of Engine Oil Degradation (mdpi.com)

Go straight to the conclusion. Nitration in a NON-NG fired engine is a thing to be concerned about IF you are running the TBN to below AN and depleting the ZDDP. In addition, the result of HARMFULL nitration is.................rapid viscosity INCREAE. About ten things happen and can be seen in even a cheap UOA before Nitration levels become a problem. Most of us fight dilution and shear long before nitration starts to cause a problem.

Nitration is more a add pack depletion issue than a tuning issues. I don't even test for it. I change oil long before it could even become a problem. Most people do.

Condemnation at 10 units ABS/Cm regardless of background.....That isn't IP, that's left field. :idiot:

Keep the oil over 175 F and change it once in a while you haven't an issue.

Edited March 15 by Grumpy Bear

VicFirth · March 15

I have some questions regarding Red Line. They arguably use the most amount of POE if virgin oxidation values are an indicator. Their Noack values are also the best. Dave from Red Line also confirmed that some grades use up to 40% POE. I suspect that grade is the 0w40 which has a virgin oxidation value of 122 or so. Higher than any other oil I'm aware of other than Valvoline Premium Restore. HPL uses POE and AN that is rumored to represent 20% of the total base oil blend. So approximately 20% group V.

From what I've been reading, it sounds like the alkylated naphthalenes do the heavy cleaning within HPL formulations. That's not to say the POE doesn't help but the heavy lifting is done by the AN base. HPL formulations do clean exceptionally well as evident by the oil filters and carbon showing up in surprising quantity. This was not seen in oils like Red Line where little to no cleaning took place. There was a guy that ran Red Line to remove carbon and varnish and it didn't clean at all. This leads me to believe that Red Line will run very clean within its limits, but not actually clean existing carbon.

It sounds like esters vary in their solvency and cleaning ability. They certainly run clean, but again that also depends on the entire formulation. There are many types of esters.

I could choose the highest quality ingredients on the market to bake a cake. What if the baker isn't good at blending them though? The cake won't taste good. Point being, it's a balancing act with chemistry and not just the sum of high-quality ingredients. You have to get that right.

An interesting fact I heard in one of the Gale Bank's Amsoil videos: to really nail down the deposit chemistry, Amsoil said they needed a dewpoint-controlled room to test it otherwise they'd be guessing.

I guess my point is how do companies like Red Line or Torco etc. know how well their products preform in these particular areas if they don't have their own mechanical engine test lab? Rely on SWRI or tear downs from racing?

Skip to 1:30.

Edited March 15 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · March 15

1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

I have some questions regarding Red Line.

I guess my point is how do companies like Red Line or Torco etc. know how well their products preform in these particular areas if they don't have their own mechanical engine test lab? Rely on SWRI or tear downs from racing?

What a great question.

Yes, racing, internal and independent labs, and about a 130 years of formulating history.

Where do AMSOILS chemist came from? How about Red Line/Phillips, Torco, Motul, Penrite, Petro Canada, AMALIE, Schaeffer, Exxon/Mobil, Chevron, Royal Dutch Shell......... Same place as everyone else. They all make some great oils; They ALL also make some crap with an SAE label and a DEXOS license. Everybody has a price point.

AMSOIL has some great marketing people.

POE's claim to fame isn't cleaning: (Tyler Housel, Inolex Chemical Co.)

Diesters are the ones with nasty cleaning and seal swelling and at 40% :crackup: From the same source:

I never considered Red Line a cleaner. It is however a great solvent.

Best way to not need a cleaner is to not let it get dirty. Polyols and AN in good doses is good strategy.

Oil 'Detergents" are not there to clean the motor. They are there to keep the oil clean.

customboss · March 15

12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Nitration is more a add pack depletion issue than a tuning issues. I don't even test for it.

That's because you are ignorant of FTIR,Ramen,near IR and combustion dynamic readings. 10 abs units for all is a rule of thumb for generalization that you took out of context because you can't be trusted by those who know.

If you keep on this misinfo about WHAT YOU TEST FOR, you'll just continue misleading those you desire to inform.

I

VicFirth · March 15

I also found out that Red Line utilizes P66's lab and has so for years. And apparently their facility is top notch. Prior to that they were owned by Spectrum, which also had their own additive testing lab and engine test stands. So there shouldn't be any concern with Red Line. They also have history on their side.

customboss · March 15

6 hours ago, VicFirth said:

I have some questions regarding Red Line. They arguably use the most amount of POE if virgin oxidation values are an indicator. Their Noack values are also the best. Dave from Red Line also confirmed that some grades use up to 40% POE. I suspect that grade is the 0w40 which has a virgin oxidation value of 122 or so. Higher than any other oil I'm aware of other than Valvoline Premium Restore. HPL uses POE and AN that is rumored to represent 20% of the total base oil blend. So approximately 20% group V.

From what I've been reading, it sounds like the alkylated naphthalenes do the heavy cleaning within HPL formulations. That's not to say the POE doesn't help but the heavy lifting is done by the AN base. HPL formulations do clean exceptionally well as evident by the oil filters and carbon showing up in surprising quantity. This was not seen in oils like Red Line where little to no cleaning took place. There was a guy that ran Red Line to remove carbon and varnish and it didn't clean at all. This leads me to believe that Red Line will run very clean within its limits, but not actually clean existing carbon.

It sounds like esters vary in their solvency and cleaning ability. They certainly run clean, but again that also depends on the entire formulation. There are many types of esters.

I could choose the highest quality ingredients on the market to bake a cake. What if the baker isn't good at blending them though? The cake won't taste good. Point being, it's a balancing act with chemistry and not just the sum of high-quality ingredients. You have to get that right.

An interesting fact I heard in one of the Gale Bank's Amsoil videos: to really nail down the deposit chemistry, Amsoil said they needed a dewpoint-controlled room to test it otherwise they'd be guessing.

I guess my point is how do companies like Red Line or Torco etc. know how well their products preform in these particular areas if they don't have their own mechanical engine test lab? Rely on SWRI or tear downs from racing?

Skip to 1:30.

Vic, If you want cleaning and lubricity you need surfactant action regardless of the chemistry. Redline looks great because HPL and others do not publish their formulations in detail.

POE is a generalization its not the specific chemistry.

Remember its the total chemistry not just one aspect.

One reason I don't use Redline is they over additize their formula, I just personally want less organo metallic additives. Redline is also majority PAO and I can go to many others for PAO if I want it.

I went with DELO 600 ADF 10w30 because of the total formulation and a sulfated ash content of .4%, why? because I believe fewer deposits in the rings and valve areas will lower oil usage. If the oil does get past the rings to exhaust pipe its just GRP II/III mix that will burn out easily and more cleanly.

customboss · March 15

6 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

I also found out that Red Line utilizes P66's lab and has so for years. And apparently their facility is top notch. Prior to that they were owned by Spectrum, which also had their own additive testing lab and engine test stands. So there shouldn't be any concern with Red Line. They also have history on their side.

Most PCMO formulations are tested by API/ ILSAC/ via ASTM standardized testing and they use viscosity read across with packaged add packs that have very little variation. In other words the brand names change but the effective chemistry of the formulation and its performance meet a min standard.

VALVOLINE is the only US PCMO maker that has its own engine lab besides EXXON MOBIL, Amsoil has one engine test stand.

CASTROL BP has engine test cells in Pangbourne England. In Europe the OEM's drive the ACEA specs not the oil formulators or blenders.

Bench testing has become the guide to new formulations and min specs. With a few specific engine or test rigs testing.

At the OEM I worked for we had 200 engine test cell stands from 2.5L to 110L engines. Every fuel tested and competitors engines tested too. In USA PCMO is not going to get tested that way. Yes Vic there are independent companies who test formulations but they are few now.