OCI, not when but why?

customboss · January 30

TBN is needless on modern spark engines. Grumpy posted up a not really applicable link and article about nat gas engines. In doing so he brought up a valid point. Nitration is your critical factor NOT oxidation in new engines. Traditional TBN additives will not neutralize nitration effects effectively.

I got the lowest nitration since new reading on my 2.7T running a 0 ZDDP oil posted at 2.7 fab club thread. That Delo 600 ADF 10w30 has a base oil or additive I can’t determine yet.

Found it here.

Found this in my Delo testing. Not sure what it is but it’s a lot. if you did a clean reference sample of the Valvoline Clean and Restore you might find something like this.

OnTheReel · January 31

Time in the sump. Seems to be of minimal impact when taken on it’s own. But this is one I’ve been kicking around for awhile. Since I put my truck away for winter at least.

I recently came across analysis of oil that had spent nearly 2 years in the sump (but less than 1000 miles). Driven properly, no short trips. Toy vehicle. TBN virtually the same as virgin, nitration - 5, sub-2% fuel. Everything looked great. So how long do you go? Manual says never exceed 6 months. At 2 years he had to blink.

I think these are all too arbitrary. Time especially but even mileage to a lesser extent. Book in the glovebox doesn’t know when or how you drive, or the condition of the engine. Or anything really.

Grumpy Bear · January 31

26 minutes ago, OnTheReel said:

Time in the sump. Seems to be of minimal impact when taken on it’s own. But this is one I’ve been kicking around for awhile. Since I put my truck away for winter at least.

I recently came across analysis of oil that had spent nearly 2 years in the sump (but less than 1000 miles). Driven properly, no short trips. Toy vehicle. TBN virtually the same as virgin, nitration - 5, sub-2% fuel. Everything looked great. So how long do you go? Manual says never exceed 6 months. At 2 years he had to blink.

I think these are all too arbitrary. Time especially but even mileage to a lesser extent. Book in the glovebox doesn’t know when or how you drive, or the condition of the engine. Or anything really.

Finally, someone is thinking.

Grumpy Bear · February 1

Let's try something.

Oil has two MAIN functions. 1.) Limit wear 2.) Keep it clean. (You did see the all caps MAIN, right?)

You trundle along changing your oil on the OLM using OEM licensed oil. You do this worry free and usage free for about 80K miles and then....BOOM.....it's using oil. Allot of oil. A quart or more per OCI.

Which job did your oil fail to do?

Is it likely that your spec oil killed your valve seals? Is it likely your bores and rings are worn ovoid? Is it likely the rings are fouled? Is it likely the PCV system is fouled? If any of these are true I'll ask again.

Which job did your oil fail to do?

To hard?

Let's move to a simpler question.

IF this condition is common enough to generate thousands of threads over multiple forums, TSB's on nearly every motor....Yet millions of units never have this issue.

WHY is your oil failing to do its job?

Is it really "luck of the draw"?

KARNUT · February 1

I don’t know if it’s oil not doing its job or asking engines to do too much. We have V-8s and V-6s with a bunch of internal parts to drop cylinders. And little engines with blowers on them to have the power of V-8s. Add direct injection. The oil starts out like water and most go about to 20WT. Engine temperature is about 20 degrees higher. Then they manage to be cleaner. All the while the average life is 150-200K miles. Most of the failures I read about are mechanical, more than loss compression. To combat all that follow the severe maintenance schedule to 100K miles. Change to a higher mileage oil after. Maybe the new valvoline cleaner oil is the answer to the puzzle for cleaning. I don’t know if it will extend oil changes or ifs that’s even a consideration. That’s the simple man’s take.

Edited February 1 by KARNUT

Grumpy Bear · February 1

5 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I don’t know if it’s oil not doing its job or asking engines to do too much. We have V-8s and V-6s with a bunch of internal parts to drop cylinders. And little engines with blowers on them to have the power of V-8s. Add direct injection. The oil starts out like water and most go about to 20WT. Engine temperature is about 20 degrees higher. Then they manage to be cleaner. All the while the average life is 150-200K miles. Most of the failures I read about are mechanical, more than loss compression. To combat all that follow the severe maintenance schedule to 100K miles. Change to a higher mileage oil after. Maybe the new valvoline cleaner oil is the answer to the puzzle for cleaning. I don’t know if it will extend oil changes or ifs that’s even a consideration. That’s the simple man’s take.

Not talking about mechanical failure of the cam assembly. Talking about excessive oil consumption.

KARNUT · February 1

38 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Not talking about mechanical failure of the cam assembly. Talking about excessive oil consumption.

I was generalizing about what I’ve learned generally. Nothing specific. That’s why I didn’t tag anyone specifically.

OnTheReel · February 2

I guess the oil is failing to do its job BUT is it really the fault of the oil? If I ask a 10 year old to do my taxes this year and they get screwed up, I’d be an idiot to blame the child. I’ve asked him to do something I should know he wouldn’t have the ability to do.

When you run shelf oil 10,000 miles at a time and you get the predictable end result, who’s to blame? Yourself for not knowing better? The oil company’s marketing departments for making ridiculous claims? The car maker? The EPA? Probably all of them.

Grumpy Bear · February 2

1 hour ago, OnTheReel said:

I guess the oil is failing to do its job BUT is it really the fault of the oil? If I ask a 10 year old to do my taxes this year and they get screwed up, I’d be an idiot to blame the child. I’ve asked him to do something I should know he wouldn’t have the ability to do.

When you run shelf oil 10,000 miles at a time and you get the predictable end result, who’s to blame? Yourself for not knowing better? The oil company’s marketing departments for making ridiculous claims? The car maker? The EPA? Probably all of them.

I framed the comment to what the OEM is telling us to do. Within that framework it still isn't working. But I get your point.

Grumpy Bear · February 3

I saw it with my own eyes.

I heard it with my own ears.

I smell it with my own nose.

I tasted it with my own tongue.

I felt it with my own fingers.

Still didn't happen.

:wtf:

Must be a sign.

OnTheReel · February 3

Just saw these VOAs of Restore & Protect 5w20 and 0w20. Nothing really new to be learned but figured I’d share.

Grumpy Bear · February 7

234,700 Miles

Dizzy has consumed 1 full quart of makeup oil in 2,250 miles using Valvoline Restore and Protect 5W30 on first use.

300 miles left on this OCI. First of many for this product. I'm beating a dead horse but it's my horse to beat Let's give it a chance. We've been here before.

A lot less soot and slow to darken. So far so good.

VicFirth · February 7

It's interesting that the Premium Blue Restore Gen2 (came out Feb of 2023) is based on high solvency base oils along with PAO where as the Restore and Protect is III based with unknown base oil/additives doing the cleaning.....could be AN? They have a good slug of boron but I don't think that's the cleaning mechanism.

The Premium Blue Restore is also more potent as they claim one oil change will remove all carbon deposits. Different market/purpose though.

Grumpy Bear · February 9

On 2/7/2024 at 8:21 AM, VicFirth said:

It's interesting that the Premium Blue Restore Gen2 (came out Feb of 2023) is based on high solvency base oils along with PAO where as the Restore and Protect is III based with unknown base oil/additives doing the cleaning.....could be AN? They have a good slug of boron but I don't think that's the cleaning mechanism.

The Premium Blue Restore is also more potent as they claim one oil change will remove all carbon deposits. Different market/purpose though.

Every fiber of my body is saying this turkey is fully cooked and nothing is going to help. But I thought that several times along our journey only to be refreshingly disappointed.

Grumpy Bear · February 9

https://www.machinerylubrication.com...multigrade-oil

I found the above link absolutely fascinating.

All that build up by both sides of the argument, to miss the obvious conclusion. (Oh, let's see if you can surmise it without me saying a word)

Also, an admission that the choice, from the OEM perspective, is an actual calculation pitting fuel savings v wear to 150K miles / 240K Km. Note the ridiculously low probability to failure used in that calculation.

:idiot:

I found the paragraph troublesome:

Another point is that most people don’t need more engine life from the typical consumer vehicle. While exceptions exist, consumer vehicles have a typical life of 12 years and 150,000 miles. Beyond this time frame, the following problems begin to arise:

A. Auxiliary system maintenance and nuisance failures become excessive.

B. The vehicle becomes an environmental nuisance due to leakage, reduced combustion efficiency and outdated (or out-of-service) emission control systems.

C. The vehicle’s styling becomes dated (some consumers are very style-conscious about their vehicles).

Not one of those points is valid for a well-maintained vehicle. That last is absurd. These are the people crushing Shoe Box Chevy's.

The OEM bar is so low as to be laughable. I've offered an example of an old school 100K mile carbureted SBC never changing oil.

Thing is, the future is now being decided by people that looking at them both couldn't' tell a sparkplug from a fireplug. Just rob me face to face and get it over with. Cowardly pickpockets. :mad: