OCI, not when but why?

OnTheReel · January 10

Borescope down a spark plug hole would actually be really interesting to see. Between the E85 and Grumps maintenance routine I’m betting it’s spotless.

I’ve bought a ton of used motors and used cars, some nicer than others. But none have looked that clean under a valve cover with that mileage. Hard to argue with results in photographic form. No need for charts and graphs.

KARNUT · January 10

My brother in law buys nearly new full sized GMs. Mostly SUVs. His wife usually puts the first 150K he takes over. His two girls got in the mix he got not so nearly new GMs. The most recent a 2013 has cylinder deactivation. It’s approaching 130K. He’s driving an 06 Tahoe going past 300K miles. I didn’t ever ask him about it. Going past 100K miles is a new phenomenon for me. So I recently asked. I was shocked to learn he changes his own oil. His very well off. He changes at 5K miles. Whatever is on sale. Whatever his vehicle requires. Synthetic or blend. Auto Zone or Oriely usually has some kind of bundle. Transmission at 50K. He mentioned he’s downsizing his wife’s next ride. He has a pickup one daughter drove to college. He’s going to stick with that and restore it. He won’t drive a front wheel drive so he’s sad to say he’s moving away from GM. I told him yes they do if you get all wheel drive. That surprises him and peeked his interest. Long story short screw the manufacturer, change your oil.

Edited January 10 by KARNUT

customboss · January 10

11 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

That's your reply? Challenge me to take my motor apart?

On my dime?

Get a grip.

Trade ya. Show me your peer reviewed case studies and $15K to tear down, freshen and reassemble my motor and you have a deal. Your published right? I mean you can prove your methods and have submitted your research to academic scrutiny and your peers have published their reviews, right? Show me your proof I'm wrong.

Tell me. How many motors in this service have to disassembled with rocker areas that looked like mine and found the ring lands fouled?

If you say one, you're lying.

Tell me what you know Mobil doesn't know. Heck, tell me what you know the entire rest of the world of oil testing doesn't. No one, and I mean no one but you has a Nitration 10 abs unit "OMG your motor has major issues" triggers. No one but you uses single point un-normalized analysis. OMG your Iron was 10 ppm this time and las time it was 9 ppm.

10 abs over background is a normal "think about changing your oil" number. Most oils have a number over 5 abs, a few as high as 9 abs in the bottle. Even your pet CUMMINS was 7 abs. Don't give me "once the engine is fired" crap. EVERYTHING changes when you start running it. It's why you change oil. It starts wearing out on the hit.

I did 40 years of consulting and testing for all the peer reviewed companies of you might reference. You’ve done what 15-20 years of posting and writing laughing emogees on internet?
Note to interested reader Grumpy will not share the data we have of his venerable 4.3 V6 from high quality oil analysis so we can prove the point that he did not maintain it ideally until AFTER he used that same high quality oil analysis.

I’m published at Cummins and other internal docs for companies I contracted for before Cummins including Shell on Pennzoil Platinum program. The work is not publicly available. You discount intellectual property because you are mostly ignorant if the concept. You might get access to a chemical patent or university study but what blenders do in end is NOT revealed. You can laugh cry whine about THEM,THEY, MAN etc but it won’t change when your source of your posts is your small sample set size of YOUR experience.
No one in the industry did what I did with IR,NEAR IR, Raman. No bragging just a fact and with memories fading I’m still not giving it away. Gotta leave hotel here and head to Denver VA hospital for some spine tune up today.

Edited January 10 by customboss

customboss · January 10

9 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Borescope down a spark plug hole would actually be really interesting to see. Between the E85 and Grumps maintenance routine I’m betting it’s spotless.

I’ve bought a ton of used motors and used cars, some nicer than others. But none have looked that clean under a valve cover with that mileage. Hard to argue with results in photographic form. No need for charts and graphs.

Problem is history he references. He makes assumptions then doesn’t document but he has oil analysis because I worked it for him.

KARNUT · January 10

10 minutes ago, customboss said:

Problem is history he references. He makes assumptions then doesn’t document but he has oil analysis because I worked it for him.

When we did the Amsoil deal in the early 80s I did the field testing. My brother did some oil analysis. I didn’t need it. The temperature, oil pressure and longevity of the hydraulics was all I needed. I don’t have a degree. But I know what I see. Graphs mean nothing to me. Results do. Unless the pictures of his rides and the results of his work with his wife’s vehicles are fake. I believe what his results are. Everything you claim may have merit. You’re driving a newer ride, that’s fine. He’s driving his results. This website and his work as well as a few others. Have changed my approach with vehicles. Saving me money. No paper will do that.

customboss · January 10

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

When we did the Amsoil deal in the early 80s I did the field testing. My brother did some oil analysis. I didn’t need it. The temperature, oil pressure and longevity of the hydraulics was all I needed. I don’t have a degree. But I know what I see. Graphs mean nothing to me. Results do. Unless the pictures of his rides and the results of his work with his wife’s vehicles are fake. I believe what his results are. Everything you claim may have merit. You’re driving a newer ride, that’s fine. He’s driving his results. This website and his work as well as a few others. Have changed my approach with vehicles. Saving me money. No paper will do that.

Understandable but that’s not what Grumps is claiming. He wants to have it both ways. Just saying be open and honest about it. In the 80’s you didn't get high quality actionable oil analysis from Amsoil. I keep trying to share that here. It’s why Grumpy used it earlier.

Edited January 10 by customboss

Grumpy Bear · January 10

6 hours ago, customboss said:

Note to interested reader Grumpy will not share the data we have of his venerable 4.3 V6 from high quality oil analysis so we can prove the point that he did not maintain it ideally until AFTER he used that same high quality oil analysis

Lie

1.) It's in my build thread. 2.) In the Post your UOA. 3.) In "Who has the highest milage, and 4.) "ethanol fuels". COMPLETE service records are on my build thread.

You're consulting and internal papers are NOT the same HAVING YOUR WORK peer reviewed. Heck I've got books/manuals published at Chevron and never once had them reviewed as part of scientific method.

Intellectual property assumes nor assures nothing about the accuracy or usability of those ideas. Which is the reason for peer review.

This thing you're doing right now is why I don't trust a word you say. Lies, deceit smoke up my backside and taking credit for things you didn't do or earn. It's why you are going on Ignore once more and not coming off this time. Loose the memory of me.

Evidence for those who require it:

Fact; I preformed routine maintenance per the book 100,541 miles 9/8/2019 (a little past actually) and NOT GUIDED by a UAO done at 80,000 miles on 10/16/2018. Well after that UOA. Almost a YEAR later. I would not resample until 9/9/2022 at 159,953 miles. THREE YEARS and 60,000 miles AFTERWARDS! The results would have been the same looking or not looking. There was NOTHING wrong then and nothing wrong now.

I'm going to tell you all a little something I've told you all before.

I don't care.

Not a single thing you think of say affects my maintenance program. Puts food on my table. Make my life secure. You want to call my contribution worthless. Go ahead. Discount my experience. Do as you please. I show my work. I explain my work. I walk the horse to the tank. Can't make him drink. Don't care if he does. He can call it poison all he wants. He's not pulling my wagon.

Edited January 10 by Grumpy Bear
additional content

Grumpy Bear · January 10

13 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Borescope down a spark plug hole would actually be really interesting to see. Between the E85 and Grumps maintenance routine I’m betting it’s spotless.

I’ve bought a ton of used motors and used cars, some nicer than others. But none have looked that clean under a valve cover with that mileage. Hard to argue with results in photographic form. No need for charts and graphs.

Thanks for noticing.

Tell ya what you'd see If I were so inclined. Carbon on the top of the piston. It's what hydrocarbons do. ALL of them to one degree or another. If fact normal combustion demands it. A thing called 'carbon neutral balance'. When a new motor is fired carbon starts to build on the piston and head/valves and then, at some point, starts to leave. It will reach a point where the same amount is being applied as is being removed. This carbon is part of the combustion process. Now what that balance may be in volume is dependent on few factors. Compression ratio, spark efficiency and fuel type. To name a few.

My old Brit bikes on gasoline need the head removed to 'Decarbonize / Decoke" them every few years. Compression ratios are very low. 6:1 and spark is weak. Lucas ignition. Rings leak oil like Dutch Dams. Combustion was improved enough by the 50's this process of decoking became a thing seldom done.

Alcohol motors at high compression ratios and welding current ignitions still leave 'soot" on the crowns. Old Brit bikes leave cakes for High Tea.

Unless I see oil on my plugs I don't even bother looking.

Yamalube has a product called Ring Free that will clean them up like new BUT within a few thousand miles they revert to their carbon balance.

Watch his videos 19 and 21 to see what I'm talking about and how good this crap is and how short lived the results. He bore scope in each of the three videos.

Edited January 10 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · January 11

8 hours ago, customboss said:

Understandable but that’s not what Grumps is claiming. He wants to have it both ways. Just saying be open and honest about it. In the 80’s you didn't get high quality actionable oil analysis from Amsoil. I keep trying to share that here. It’s why Grumpy used it earlier.

Wrong again. It was the menu of test that appealed to me.

It was the fact I was given the service for pennies on the dollar.

It was not lost on me that this was to build support for the service.

I don't mind being used if I get a kiss first

Edited January 11 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · January 11

Predicting Oil and Grease Life (machinerylubrication.com)

Go to figure #1 and note the effect base oil type has on lubrication life.

Grumpy Bear · January 11

Nitration / Oxidation Scholarly Peer Reviewed Documentation

A proper peer reviewed journal on this topic. Published June 2020. Current and Relevant.

FREE for the look up. Note how unrealistic a 10 abs limit is for gas motors.

Evaluating petrol engine oil deterioration through oxidation and nitration parameters by low-cost IR sensor | Applied Petrochemical Research (springer.com)

Note that only 20% of all first samples, that is within the OEM's OCI passed. Shell 5W30

Note that background IS important.

Note: OEM limit is 25 abs. ABOVE BACKGROUND for both nitration AND oxidation.

A peer review is where someone else duplicates your work and gets the same results.

Reference provided.

*************************

Trying to maintain <10 abs regardless of background will drive you both nutty and broke but make your lab rich.

I have found exactly one credible source for keeping the Nitration level below 8 abs. But it was for EGR low speed stationary diesels. Where the bulk of customboss's experience lies. Diesel. CUMMINS

*************************

In practical terms. The reason Pepper is so clean inside is Nitration absolute never exceeded 12 abs and never will. Background for both of the oils I sampled was 7 abs.

Why will it never reach the 25 abs limit? I condemned both oils about @50% TBN depletion based on VOA by ASTM method D2896. Actually a little eary with the Red Line HP. A little over with the CUMMINS.

Nitration is a non issue FOR GAS MOTORS unless there are mechanical issues with the cooling system or service never permits oil temperatures to stabilize over 175F OR you buy the Kool-Aid that you can run your TBN down to 1 and never have to look at the AN. :idiot:

jwhjr · January 11

21 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Lie

1.) It's in my build thread. 2.) In the Post your UOA. 3.) In "Who has the highest milage, and 4.) "ethanol fuels". COMPLETE service records are on my build thread.

You're consulting and internal papers are NOT the same HAVING YOUR WORK peer reviewed. Heck I've got books/manuals published at Chevron and never once had them reviewed as part of scientific method.

Intellectual property assumes nor assures nothing about the accuracy or usability of those ideas. Which is the reason for peer review.

This thing you're doing right now is why I don't trust a word you say. Lies, deceit smoke up my backside and taking credit for things you didn't do or earn. It's why you are going on Ignore once more and not coming off this time. Loose the memory of me.

Evidence for those who require it:

Fact; I preformed routine maintenance per the book 100,541 miles 9/8/2019 (a little past actually) and NOT GUIDED by a UAO done at 80,000 miles on 10/16/2018. Well after that UOA. Almost a YEAR later. I would not resample until 9/9/2022 at 159,953 miles. THREE YEARS and 60,000 miles AFTERWARDS! The results would have been the same looking or not looking. There was NOTHING wrong then and nothing wrong now.

I'm going to tell you all a little something I've told you all before.

I don't care.

Not a single thing you think of say affects my maintenance program. Puts food on my table. Make my life secure. You want to call my contribution worthless. Go ahead. Discount my experience. Do as you please. I show my work. I explain my work. I walk the horse to the tank. Can't make him drink. Don't care if he does. He can call it poison all he wants. He's not pulling my wagon.

Seems as if you do care

Grumpy Bear · January 11

29 minutes ago, jwhjr said:

Seems as if you do care

What I said is I don't' care if you believe what I say or not or if you implement it in your program. I will always care about the accuracy of the content I write. I can handle any behavior. I just won't tolerate some.

VicFirth · January 11

Restore + Protect – Valvoline (valvolineglobal.com)

Valvoline™ Global Operations Unveils Revolutionary Motor Oil: Restore & Protect (prnewswire.com)

Official release.

Edited January 11 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · January 12

3 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Restore + Protect – Valvoline (valvolineglobal.com)

Valvoline™ Global Operations Unveils Revolutionary Motor Oil: Restore & Protect (prnewswire.com)

Official release.