OCI, not when but why?

[KARNUT]

I’m a hard ass and a little hard headed. I’m also observant and can change my mind. If someone takes the time and spends the money to either make a vehicle their own. Or bring one back from the dead you get my attention. Especially if you post the pictures. If someone comes along and says that man is full of beans. Charts and words don’t do it pictures do. As the old saying goes believe nothing you hear and half of what you see. 

[customboss]

5 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I’m a hard ass and a little hard headed. I’m also observant and can change my mind. If someone takes the time and spends the money to either make a vehicle their own. Or bring one back from the dead you get my attention. Especially if you post the pictures. If someone comes along and says that man is full of beans. Charts and words don’t do it pictures do. As the old saying goes believe nothing you hear and half of what you see. 

Karnut how do you think Grumpy got that 2.4L carbon maker working better? He used my old oil analysis service after Black02Silverado referred him to me before I retired starting with his 2015 4.3 truck IN 2018. 

 

He's learned alot from Nick and I over the years.   Without data and ISO CERTIFIED OIL ANALYSIS the 2.4L would be dead.  

 

He's a great mechanic and thinker most of time until he takes credit for technology and testing that is not his own. 

 

I was happy to have him as a customer before retirement but hes an odd one.  I usually don't buy lunch in Illinois and meet with folks like him if I don't like them.  

 

OnTheReel I am happy you are happy rock on.  

 

I'll stick with the 2.7L L3B stuff.  Marty maybe I really don't know what the ignore button does?  Help me. 

 

 

[KARNUT]

53 minutes ago, customboss said:

Karnut how do you think Grumpy got that 2.4L carbon maker working better? He used my old oil analysis service after Black02Silverado referred him to me before I retired starting with his 2015 4.3 truck IN 2018. 

 

He's learned alot from Nick and I over the years.   Without data and ISO CERTIFIED OIL ANALYSIS the 2.4L would be dead.  

 

He's a great mechanic and thinker most of time until he takes credit for technology and testing that is not his own. 

 

I was happy to have him as a customer before retirement but hes an odd one.  I usually don't buy lunch in Illinois and meet with folks like him if I don't like them.  

 

OnTheReel I am happy you are happy rock on.  

 

I'll stick with the 2.7L L3B stuff.  Marty maybe I really don't know what the ignore button does?  Help me. 

 

 

I enjoy the back and forth banter between you’ll. I get info from a multiple sources. I take the simplest path. My testing was in the field in extreme situations. We used regular oils and changed often as recommended. Amsoil came along with extended and saved us money, lots of money. Especially in hydraulics. We were the first to convert pto in our cleaning tractors to Hydraulic with high flow pumps and motors. To run our tree clearing equipment. First in converting Hydro AX to use our equipment. We were OEM for John Deer and Caterpillar to name a couple. First to convert a skid steer for land clearing. Now the family business sells all those brands that grew from our ideas. You travel the interstate you will see our original idea clearing the side of the road or pipelines. Mounted on excavators to skid steers. The idea was born when burning was banned in New Jersey in the early 70s. My father was a site prep practitioner from tree to grade. Just when the burning ban started he saw advertising in a magazine a small brush clearing machine. It was mounted on a farm tractor. He  acquired the rights to that design using the machine to clear trees instead of burning. We were the first to land clear, pipeline clear with this type of machine. Now up to 1000 HP. We weren’t hydraulic experts or engineers. Starting with my father idea what if guys. Four of us working together with different talents. Using experts in their fields with vision. I see two people bringing two sides of the same coin. That compliment each other in different ways. The result changed your damn oil. Ignore the manufacturer recommendations using only extreme service schedule. 

[customboss]

2 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I enjoy the back and forth banter between you’ll. I get info from a multiple sources. I take the simplest path. My testing was in the field in extreme situations. We used regular oils and changed often as recommended. Amsoil came along with extended and saved us money, lots of money. Especially in hydraulics. We were the first to convert pto in our cleaning tractors to Hydraulic with high flow pumps and motors. To run our tree clearing equipment. First in converting Hydro AX to use our equipment. We were OEM for John Deer and Caterpillar to name a couple. First to convert a skid steer for land clearing. Now the family business sells all those brands that grew from our ideas. You travel the interstate you will see our original idea clearing the side of the road or pipelines. Mounted on excavators to skid steers. The idea was born when burning was banned in New Jersey in the early 70s. My father was a site prep practitioner from tree to grade. Just when the burning ban started he saw advertising in a magazine a small brush clearing machine. It was mounted on a farm tractor. He  acquired the rights to that design using the machine to clear trees instead of burning. We were the first to land clear, pipeline clear with this type of machine. Now up to 1000 HP. We weren’t hydraulic experts or engineers. Starting with my father idea what if guys. Four of us working together with different talents. Using experts in their fields with vision. I see two people bringing two sides of the same coin. That compliment each other in different ways. The result changed your damn oil. Ignore the manufacturer recommendations using only extreme service schedule. 

Great background and as I have stated before your fleet running Amsoil was brilliant and cutting edge for the time.  Where we reside we have 200 miles of roads 2 AWD CAT 140ms, JD 644K, f250 4WD pickup truck , CAT 416C backhoe, D6K dozier. Our landowners association switched to Amsoil trans hydraulic and engine oil fluids thanks to Black02Silverado at a significant commercial account discount. We use oil analysis after years of crack head operators lying about daily services and CAT and Deere loving repairs at full price in this remote area. I get it! 

[KARNUT]

1 minute ago, customboss said:

Great background and as I have stated before your fleet running Amsoil was brilliant and cutting edge for the time.  Where we reside we have 200 miles of roads 2 AWD CAT 140ms, JD 644K, f250 4WD pickup truck , CAT 416C backhoe, D6K dozier. Our landowners association switched to Amsoil trans hydraulic and engine oil fluids thanks to Black02Silverado at a significant commercial account discount. We use oil analysis after years of crack head operators lying about daily services and CAT and Deere loving repairs at full price in this remote area. I get it! 

I’m going on ten years retired. I check in with the family business from time to time. They recently moved to a 40 acres and much larger shops. The last time I got into the seat of a land clearing machine. I pretty much didn’t slow down no matter the size of the size of the tree. It’s funny my brother is the oil expert, he’s always testing and looking for the best. I don’t even ask him. I know he sells Amsoil and redline. Business must be good he just bought a Shelby truck. His son and head salesman drive Raptors. The shop Forman drives a TRX. Or they all just went crazy. 

[OnTheReel]

6 hours ago, customboss said:

 

OnTheReel I am happy you are happy rock on.  

Next sample is going out tomorrow. We’ll see how happy I get.

 

Nick is getting the one after this. I initially wanted to have him do this one but the recent snow forced me to put her to sleep a little earlier than planned. You and Grump and everyone else here have been more than helpful. Especially considering it’s a GM forum and the newest one I own at the moment is a 1966 (and it ain’t a truck).

[Grumpy Bear]

Your head is more than a hat rack  

 

Why do refiners refine? Why do chemical companies synthesize? There is more to it than segregation by distillation. Isolate the thought to just motor oil base stocks. 

 

Question asked differently. Why do you choose one oil TYPE over another? 

 

I'll bet two thoughts were in competition. 1.) Improve the product performance. 2.) Lower the cost. 

 

If you can get both that's a payday for both sides. On the production side it's simple math. Margin. On the user side cost are considered a bit differently. Cost! Cost to buy, Cost to use. 

 

The disconnect between these two is and always has been the "Economic VOTE". Matters little what the margin is if the buyer isn't buying. To the obverse, it also doesn't matter how good the product is if the cost it prohibitive. 

 

The bridge between the two is Marketing and one of the first rules of marketing is an ignorant public that THINKS they are educated. It's the golden goose. This is never truer than it is IF the damage ignorance produces takes a very long time to realize. The longer the better.

 

A great second choice is the 'management of expectations'. 1.) Make some damage acceptable. 2.) Limit the expectation of longevity, reliability, economy, durability. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

This is more words than most can handle. 

 

Even though this 3-part resource is a few years old the content and focus are relevant even now. 

 

The Evolution of Base Oil Technology Industry Focus (machinerylubrication.com)

 

The Advent of Modern Hydroprocessing - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 2 (machinerylubrication.com)

 

Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3 (machinerylubrication.com)

 

[at the end of the last article] 

 

Driven by the substantially lower price of Group III oils, the synthetic automotive lubricant market in North America is rapidly converting most of its volumes to Group III base stocks.

 

Selected top-tier lubricants requiring PAO will continue to coexist with Group III oils as they have for years in Europe.

 

[Take note of the 'word play']

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:45 PM, OnTheReel said:

the world conspiracy against good old smart guys like you.  

 

@OnTheReel quoting @customboss

 

7 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

This is more words than most can handle. 

 

Even though this 3-part resource is a few years old the content and focus are relevant even now. 

 

The Evolution of Base Oil Technology Industry Focus (machinerylubrication.com)

 

The Advent of Modern Hydroprocessing - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 2 (machinerylubrication.com)

 

Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3 (machinerylubrication.com)

 

[at the end of the last article] 

 

Driven by the substantially lower price of Group III oils, the synthetic automotive lubricant market in North America is rapidly converting most of its volumes to Group III base stocks.

 

Selected top-tier lubricants requiring PAO will continue to coexist with Group III oils as they have for years in Europe.

 

[Take note of the 'word play']

 

No conspiracy. Outright admission. 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Distinctions with little difference

Example of marketing pretending to be education. I told you to watch the 'word play'. The solubility of a Group III is only ever so slightly better than a PAO as indicated by its aniline point. Of all the charts they did not include this was that. 

 

Group III vs. PAO (Group IV) Performance

Historically, polyalphaolefins (PAOs) have had superior performance characteristics such as viscosity index (VI), pour point, volatility and oxidation stability that could not be achieved with conventional mineral oils. With modern base oil manufacturing, VI, pour point, volatility and oxidation stability all can be independently controlled.

A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance. 

 

 

The Importance of Oil Oxidation Stability (machinerylubrication.com)

 Linked in Part III. From second to last paragraph quoted below:

 

[Severely hydrotreated base oils also have poor solubility characteristics. Without proper formulation, additives may not remain suspended, and some additive drop out could occur.]

 

From the chart: 

Note they call AN and Esters 'Additive technologies used to boost solvency'? Blending is more than finding the 'right' additive packages. It's also blending the right base oils. Both can be used as an additive but it's a waste of synergies that can be obtained if used as a base oil. 

 

If you isolate facts from context and limit access to that context you are marketing, not educating. That isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact that has zip to do with the one pointing it out.  

Edited November 28, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

 

Baking the Cake

 

Sometimes a particular blend of base oils will permit a specific additive to be completely eliminated. And it's a good thing.

 

Use of a PAO/AN/POE or PAO/Ester, blend, i.e., will produce a single grade oil that has a high enough viscosity index to allow it to fit the specifications of a multigrade absent any VII chemistry. No VII chemisties like HPL No-VII oils and Red Line Race. MPT 30K. 

 

Addition of specific amounts of POE will not only erase the lack of lubricity in a PAO, it will raise it beyond a Group III or PAO with moly/boron. Add those to a PAO/POE in the right amount and you can realize more drag reduction than one full SAE viscosity grade with a film strength a grade higher. 

 

Blends made with the best Group III's, and higher fluids not only do not require any PPD, pour point depressant, they do not respond to them. They are absent wax and PPD is a wax solidification inhibitor.

 

If you read the links, you know the drive of refinement in large part is the reduction of oxidation and thermal degradation. It cannot be eliminated but it can be really-REALLY slowed down. In some cases, synergies exist in which the blends of certain base oils raise the oxidation initiation onset temperature to a point higher than either component alone has! That the case less of those additives will produce a product with the same life as a less hydrogenated fluid WITHOUT the reduction. Hum....so, break even. So, what happens if you don't reduce those additives? Even longer service life. Yea, no one is doing that isn't a boutique oil. 

 

You see a pattern after a while where the base oils make a step forward and the blender takes advantage of the to produce a product no better than the previous iteration OR only marginally better and pockets the difference when he reduces the add package. That micro step that could have been a major step is then consumed by an OEM who creates conditions the totally consume the minor improvement plus some. 

 

The 'marketing' says these oils are over added and over based. Okay...if you say so....

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[VicFirth]

Not to be confused with Premium Blue Restore, this is a new product Valvoline is hyping up for 2024. 

 

[customboss]

13 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Not to be confused with Premium Blue Restore, this is a new product Valvoline is hyping up for 2024. 

 

Cummins must have made some big bucks off Valvoline on this one.  

[customboss]

On 11/28/2023 at 5:26 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

Distinctions with little difference

Example of marketing pretending to be education. I told you to watch the 'word play'. The solubility of a Group III is only ever so slightly better than a PAO as indicated by its aniline point. Of all the charts they did not include this was that. 

 

Group III vs. PAO (Group IV) Performance

Historically, polyalphaolefins (PAOs) have had superior performance characteristics such as viscosity index (VI), pour point, volatility and oxidation stability that could not be achieved with conventional mineral oils. With modern base oil manufacturing, VI, pour point, volatility and oxidation stability all can be independently controlled.

A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance. 

 

 

The Importance of Oil Oxidation Stability (machinerylubrication.com)

 Linked in Part III. From second to last paragraph quoted below:

 

[Severely hydrotreated base oils also have poor solubility characteristics. Without proper formulation, additives may not remain suspended, and some additive drop out could occur.]

 

From the chart: 

Note they call AN and Esters 'Additive technologies used to boost solvency'? Blending is more than finding the 'right' additive packages. It's also blending the right base oils. Both can be used as an additive but it's a waste of synergies that can be obtained if used as a base oil. 

 

If you isolate facts from context and limit access to that context you are marketing, not educating. That isn't a conspiracy, it's a fact that has zip to do with the one pointing it out.  

OSPag's are expensive. As we well know cost and profit are serious drivers. Of course you will never know if you have a OSP in the mix unless you do some good testing with better FTIR than anyone sees here besides the former Dyson product Nick marketed. 

[customboss]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:49 AM, KARNUT said:

I’m a hard ass and a little hard headed. I’m also observant and can change my mind. If someone takes the time and spends the money to either make a vehicle their own. Or bring one back from the dead you get my attention. Especially if you post the pictures. If someone comes along and says that man is full of beans. Charts and words don’t do it pictures do. As the old saying goes believe nothing you hear and half of what you see. 

Really?   "a little hard headed."   We are all old and hard headed, you underestimated your capabilities Brother.....LOL  My brain bag is not working right but when it is I come back to GM-Trucks to try to catch up....