OCI, not when but why?

KARNUT · November 23, 2023

4 hours ago, customboss said:

Whats that got to do with Grumpy and OnTheReel agreeing that we have to have ZDDP to stop EP or Wear damage in our current engines?

Grumpy can't reply to that because hes not up on the latest chemistries. Note they aren't being shared publicly let alone the internet.

You’re pretty bright, right? I learned by all the back and forth that modern engines need more frequent oil changes. I would’ve just continued on with extended otherwise. Lesson learned. The rest is noise to me. I’m glad it’s not to others.

OnTheReel · November 23, 2023

Grump has been gracious enough to share his experiences (and struggles), and he knows very well what works and what doesn’t. If it could be demonstrated unequivocally that some fancy new blend will actually perform better than what I use, I’d switch. Until then, I don’t need to be on the cutting edge of chemistry, or anything else for that matter. Even the engines in my modern cars are fairly simple, so I see no need to re-invent the wheel.

Hope everyone is having a great Thanksgiving.

customboss · November 24, 2023

Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

customboss · November 24, 2023

5 hours ago, KARNUT said:

You’re pretty bright, right? I learned by all the back and forth that modern engines need more frequent oil changes. I would’ve just continued on with extended otherwise. Lesson learned. The rest is noise to me. I’m glad it’s not to others.

No I’m seriously cognitively declined from dementia caused by a RPG shrapnel to right side of my head in 1981. Funny thing is on my new drugs I try to share here. Guess I need more.

Grumpy Bear · November 24, 2023

7 hours ago, KARNUT said:

Grumpy can't reply to that because hes not up on the latest chemistries. Note they aren't being shared publicly let alone the internet.

(customboss not Stan quoted above]

But you are and have access......but.... can't share them...... Go find a five-year-old to convince.

I have some rules.

1.) If the answer has to be now, the answer is NO.

2.) My faith is NEVER blind, it's assured.

3.) I never leave A without B in my pocket. Job, technology, belief....

4.) I trust my lying eyes over ' unproven, unsubstantiated secret talk'.

5.) Saying a thing is true doesn't make it true.

6.) I don't do F.U.D. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.

7.) What you tell me I can't do or can't find out is what I made my living doing.

EVERYTHING is available with enough effort, cash or connections.

Experts sold and marketed Zantac. Safe they said. Cancer was the result of that trust. Experts said the replacement for whale oil in ATF was "Better than". Yea, trans failure by the 'shut down production' levels prove it wasn't. Nearly the same results with flat tappet cam failures when zinc and phosphorus went below SJ levels.

Point is, hide it and I'm not buying it. And I'm not turning my back on decades of what I've proven to myself works. Something new doesn't make something better or something old useless or even undesirable.

No one will tell you to run in a flat tappet on 'todays SP' oils. Roller cams didn't eliminate boundary layer lubrication at the cylinder walls. You telling us different? Your smarter or more in the know than all the manufactures, blenders and labs combine?

customboss · November 24, 2023

4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

(customboss not Stan quoted above]

But you are and have access......but.... can't share them...... Go find a five-year-old to convince.

I have some rules.

1.) If the answer has to be now, the answer is NO.

2.) My faith is NEVER blind, it's assured.

3.) I never leave A without B in my pocket. Job, technology, belief....

4.) I trust my lying eyes over ' unproven, unsubstantiated secret talk'.

5.) Saying a thing is true doesn't make it true.

6.) I don't do F.U.D. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.

7.) What you tell me I can't do or can't find out is what I made my living doing.

EVERYTHING is available with enough effort, cash or connections.

Experts sold and marketed Zantac. Safe they said. Cancer was the result of that trust. Experts said the replacement for whale oil in ATF was "Better than". Yea, trans failure by the 'shut down production' levels prove it wasn't. Nearly the same results with flat tappet cam failures when zinc and phosphorus went below SJ levels.

Point is, hide it and I'm not buying it. And I'm not turning my back on decades of what I've proven to myself works. Something new doesn't make something better or something old useless or even undesirable.

No one will tell you to run in a flat tappet on 'todays SP' oils. Roller cams didn't eliminate boundary layer lubrication at the cylinder walls. You telling us different? Your smarter or more in the know than all the manufactures, blenders and labs combine?

I posted data showing a production Chevron oil with oronite add pack that checks everyone of your blathering hand waving comments above. Reader see my Delo 600 ADF DATA posts above earlier in this thread.
Argue with Oronite and Chevron not me.
HORSE MEET WATER.

Grumpy Bear · November 24, 2023

Once upon a time the driver for research was improvement in the products. Now, it's improvement in bottom lines. Fact is when a manufacture makes something 'to good' they just quit making it. Ecology has nothing to do with it.

While the Kool-Aid being passed around says all this oil hoop jumping is for the environment, the easiest path to that goal is to double or triple the life of the vehicle. We don't just have the technology, we've buried it. Distraction is a tool of greed. Darn good one too. :crackup: Don't think a body could last twice as long or a motor three or four times? Already been done.

Mg, i.e., isn't a new 'magical' tool in the blender's toolbox. It's an old tool that was deemed too expensive to use that has been trotted out because chasing a new goal forced its use. LSPI. Ditto EP's, VII and just about every other thing on the blenders list. Nothing new is under the sun. The goals and needs have changed. New distractions are required. New lies to be told for profit.

We don't use the best bases for what reason? Cost. We don't use the best additives because? Cost. And be it forbidden that we use them together. We don't want another Buick 3800 on our hands now do we. :rollin:

I'm sick of the lies and deceit. This oil will handle fuel dilution better that that one. Yea, like a second grain of sand in the sea will raise the oceans level. Not in a meaningful way. Zinc will corrode bearings. At levels over 1600 and if you leave it long enough to deplete the acid pack, yea. :wtf: Always, just half the story being told.

They flat tell you the move to lower viscosity is fuel efficiency driven. They flat tell you there is a threshold where lower doesn't help. They tell you lower viscosity increases wear. Yet all of that is ignored by everyone who drinks the magic additive Kool-Aid.

customboss · November 24, 2023

25 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Once upon a time the driver for research was improvement in the products. Now, it's improvement in bottom lines. Fact is when a manufacture makes something 'to good' they just quit making it. Ecology has nothing to do with it.

While the Kool-Aid being passed around says all this oil hoop jumping is for the environment, the easiest path to that goal is to double or triple the life of the vehicle. We don't just have the technology, we've buried it. Distraction is a tool of greed. Darn good one too. Don't think a body could last twice as long or a motor three or four times? Already been done.

Mg, i.e., isn't a new 'magical' tool in the blender's toolbox. It's an old tool that was deemed too expensive to use that has been trotted out because chasing a new goal forced its use. LSPI. Ditto EP's, VII and just about every other thing on the blenders list. Nothing new is under the sun. The goals and needs have changed. New distractions are required. New lies to be told for profit.

We don't use the best bases for what reason? Cost. We don't use the best additives because? Cost. And be it forbidden that we use them together. We don't want another Buick 3800 on our hands now do we.

I'm sick of the lies and deceit. This oil will handle fuel dilution better that that one. Yea, like a second grain of sand in the sea will raise the oceans level. Not in a meaningful way. Zinc will corrode bearings. At levels over 1600 and if you leave it long enough to deplete the acid pack, yea. Always, just half the story being told.

They flat tell you the move to lower viscosity is fuel efficiency driven. They flat tell you there is a threshold where lower doesn't help. They tell you lower viscosity increases wear. Yet all of that is ignored by everyone who drinks the magic additive Kool-Aid.

How did Chevron get a GRP II/III based 15w40 and 10w30 API CK4 and CNG ( Cummins CES 28006) designed engine oil to meet those specs without ZDDP?

Its not just Mg sulfonate.

I agree with you on the above but I can't change it but when I synapses are firing I like to use unique products to solve issues.

Not to sell anything.

Grumpy Bear · November 25, 2023

Someone doesn't understand how an ignore button works.

customboss · November 25, 2023

16 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Someone doesn't understand how an ignore button works.

Good to know that you can't answer a specific question to your hand waving about a actual Delo 600 ADF chemistry but post platitudes.

Here's your problem in this GM-Trucks neighborhood, you mislead and obfuscate for the reader.

Operating a mix control room is not tribology. Being retired and spending hours a day on the interwebs ( LOL ) won't get you up to speed.

BTW the Chevron- Oronite OMNI MAX technology is a little over 4 years old.

Ive been retired from R&D work since 2020 so I admit I don't have as much access to patents, proprietary formulations, etc as in the past but you never did.

Just be real with people like OnTheReel and don't blow smoke about marketing, lying, greed, the world conspiracy against good old smart guys like you.

You mentioned you believe his 6.4 Mopar is doing just fine from what you know about historical data for that engine design. REALLY? Don't mislead him.

You mean well but you also have an ego that overrides that good part and maybe more meds might help.

My new meds really help........experience you know....LOL

diyer2 · November 25, 2023

My 2 cents.

Both of you post stuff that the general public either doesn't understand or isn't willing to take the time to try to understand it. Or they just don't care, most of the forum members IMO.

You two try to prove who's right or the smartest when it really doesn't matter because no one cares. While I will acknowledge your knowledge what does it matter if it's ignored by most forum members.

Nobody wants to read a short story to get the answer to a question especially if you don't understand the story.

If you two could put your egos aside and work together your input could be a big asset.

My way of thinking is there are millions of vehicles using off the shelf oils or dealer bulk oil with varied OCI's doing just fine. Simply changing the oil works and the intervals is a personal choice.

I pick my battles and they are few because most aren't worth my time.

I'm sorry to be so blunt.

Grumpy Bear · November 25, 2023

41 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Both of you post stuff that the general public either doesn't understand or isn't willing to take the time to try to understand it.

I'm sorry to be so blunt.

No need to apologize. You mean me no harm and I know that.

I don't write for the general public. It's just the format we use here. Aware most people are unwilling to read a post over 200 characters, spaces included. It's a tool I use to tell me something about the reader. Every once in a while, someone is interested enough to benefit from it.

Information by itself it not useful unless it is practical, factual, truthful and in FULL context. I am more than happy to lose an audience that just likes their ears tickled and willing to resist those that find the whole story theirs alone. It doesn't benefit me at all if I'm read. No one's life depends on it.

Sorry to be so blunt.

OnTheReel · November 25, 2023

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Just be real with people like OnTheReel and don't blow smoke about marketing, lying, greed, the world conspiracy against good old smart guys like you.

You mentioned you believe his 6.4 Mopar is doing just fine from what you know about historical data for that engine design. REALLY? Don't mislead him.

Hey, you don’t have to talk about me like I’m not here, or that I’m too dumb to interpret what’s going on with my 6.2. I take everything in from everyone and make the calls for myself at the end of the day. Iron is slightly higher than Blackstone’s historical average (which is just that, an average). And your professional suggestion is what? Prepare for a warranty claim and just let it go? Really?

You don’t even know how I drive the thing and you’re convinced that it’s ready to blow even though iron is trending down on every subsequent test. Maybe your tribological experience would know better, but I would think that an engine eating a cam or lifters would be getting worse as time wore on, not improving.

For what it’s worth, I have gathered 27 UOAs from this engine/ platform. I’ve seen everything there is to see at this point, and talked to real experts at Red Line and HPL too. I’ve neither seen nor heard anything to make me as concerned as you apparently are.

Grumpy Bear · November 26, 2023

Truth doesn't need proof to exist.

Truth needs proof to be believed.

Some people have this idea that they can say a thing true. Make an accusation and if it sticks, it's true. No shortage of minions willing to accept that.

"They say", "Studies show". Who and what study. Was it peer reviewed?

When what you have is a story that you have some special privilege to information and took a pinky oath to hold in secret as evidence......ya lost me. And I run like a rabbit from people that tell me the published peer reviewed works we all can read are invalid on their say so. I run even faster when they tell us that every University, Lab and PhD on the planet has it wrong. Toss out methods, call out organizations like the API and SAE as frauds and call into question competency of those people like they have a corner on it all.

If there is something better, it will be published soon enough. It will be available. Has to be to obtain the patent. Produce it!