Why does no one compare 2.7 vs 3.0...turbo motors?

4banger · July 5, 2022

12 hours ago, mjonesjr84 said:

You can't say power is a wash comparing HP and TQ numbers. Those are 2 completely different numbers with one only being calculated and not actually measured.

Comparing a gas to a diesel engine always blows my mind. There are too many differences to compare them.

well the forum seems to mention the 3.0 diesel in the v8 threads a lot, or vice versa, so I’m with you in that and point of this thread is now the 2.7 should be mentioned just as frequently as it’s in the same wheelhouse of overall power levels and work potentials as the the 3.0 and 5.3 and as soon as elevation is involved the turbos start to work closer to 6.2 levels

yes highest torque number is the most powerful motor with most work potential but highest horsepower can do lighter work quicker and apparently that’s important to a lot of guys, and our engines vary the power levels constantly and our loads vary from empty to loaded and so we work on a continually sliding scale of work potential and speed it can be done and we choose our motors to suit our asks, some guys wanna go faster like a car, some wanna do more work at much lower rpms...like trucks are meant for

so good point and should be discussed more is empty truck or working truck(towing or loaded)

the higher horsepower v8’s need lots more revs to show their ability to work faster with the lighter loads but the tfl truck guys have plenty of info to show what I’m saying is accurate, watch them tow 6700 lbs with gen1 2.7 up the Ike in under 8 minutes, (same time up as the 3.5 ecoboost and 6.2 GM) and the shock when they saw how fast it got from 35-55 mph. The one guy was like no way, this thing will be over 9 minutes to the top but he stayed pretty quiet after he saw how quick it got the load up to speed and then it did in 7 minutes and 59 seconds. They did a 5.3 also with 7000 lbs that was 8.0 minutes and both returned 3.7 mpg up that climb...same work done, how can anybody say they aren’t same power level engines?

so for the others reading this and scoffing at my combining the hp/torque numbers into a single work potential number to show these motors are more similar than not but simply deliver differently, that’s all I’m pointing out, and trucks are for work no?, seems to be guys here want a sports truck maybe get a camaro instead lol, you want the faster acceleration empty car duty type rig get your na v8’s, you want the work motors get the turbos, there’s a gas one and a diesel one...let’s make sure the go forward discussions where one turbo is talked about the other one is too

that’s point of this thread, lots of old stigma that a four banger can’t be enough...lol haven’t heard of a 4bt? this four banger isn’t a light duty civic engine needing to only move a few hundred pounds of people around lol, it gets higher tow ratings and payloads than the 5.3 now, that should tell the story pretty clearly...so get used to it making it into any discussion the 5.3 is in imo

4banger · July 5, 2022

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Scan Gauge II that I run tells me across all motors in my fleet that rarely is the motor asked to put up more than 100 horsepower and rarely turns over 3,000 rpm. 310hp and 430 lbs/ft torque? This 2.7 Turbo motor is loafing most of the time.

Seriously? 383 lbs/ft for the 5.3 and the 2.7 is only 30 lbs/ft short of the 6.2. Yea, 93.5% of the torque of the 6.2. It's built for it. Doesn't hurt it a bit.

Well said. Many should read that again.

I can confirm, I’m over 2000 kms on the new 2.7 and I just towed 3700 lbs over the mountains in alberta here and the serious climbs saw 3000 rpm but what it will climb from 1500-2500 is incredible. This thing is a low rpm relaxed wizard, as close to diesel as you’ll get while burning gas.

Edited July 5, 2022 by 4banger

4banger · July 5, 2022

On 7/3/2022 at 8:17 PM, TNTSilverado said:

Yet car magazine reviewers all state it doesn’t achieve its so called MPGs. I don’t live in your elevation and a majority of others don’t either. Bring that 2.7L down here and the 5.3L and 6.2L will embarrass it!

Even in your elevation. The 5.3L is still right there on par and won’t be working as hard and the 6.2L is in a whole other league

car and driver. 0-60 times

2.7L…..7.0 secs.

5.3L…..6.1 secs.

6.2L……….5.3 secs. That’s almost 2 full seconds. Not even close when elevation isn’t a factor which for me and many others it’s not. For you I can definitely see it. Until they can make that 4 cylinder achieve 28-30 mpgs consistently…I’ll stick with a V8 that can achieve mid 20s.

The 6.2L you also had was on a lifted truck. Of course it’s gonna affect the MPGs and performance! Go put a lift and larger tires on your 2.7L and watch the MPGs and performance drop dramatically.

That’s why GM should offer a sport truck and offer the 2.7L in a single cab. A 5.3L in ext cab and a 6.2L in crew cab with an option to add supercharger to the 2 V8s. They had one at the SEMA show back in 2018. If GM would put a blower on either V8….you can take elevation out entirely!

I have seen first hand from stepdad, brother in law, and father law all having ecoboost V6s that they underperform tremendously compared to GMs V8s. All my 5.3L and 6.2L achieved better mpgs. Hell my old school 5.0L achieved better than my stepdads 2011 ecoboost.

We could go on and on. I’m glad you like your “4 cylinder”. It seems to be a nice little engine. But to put it into a conversation with two of GMs V8s is amusing. It has a long way to go to achieve the reputation of GMs small blocks!

Well fuelly.com actuals say mileage is there and mine now has 2000 kms on it and it’s rated at 13.9 city, 12.0 highway (l/100km) and both my empty mixed driveway tanks have been 12.0 so better than advertised so far. So maybe the magazine tests aren’t very representative of real world use lol.

Your next point on 0-60 times, good measure for sports car buying but not terribly important for a truck measure as total work(torque) vs hp(speed of work) should have appropriate weighting. You and your fam want sport trucks and run empty all the time maybe the short stroke higher rpm v8’s are the ticket. Although most guys who actually drive both say they 2.7 is more spirited, nimble and fun in town than the 5.3. Sounds like you haven’t driven one yet or you might actually prefer it also. Now what’s the 0-60 of them both loaded with 7000 lbs? See the tfl vids towing up the Ike with either motor to see how stout the 2.7 is. The 5.3 does less work than the 2.7 but it can do it quicker, it’s actually more car motor than the 2.7, some guys think that’s the hot ticket though.

Agree it has a long way to go to get the reputation of the GM small block and LS v8’s. They started somewhere too (way back in the last century lol) and GM knows the formula to build legends. This one just came out in 2019 and has all the right formula, you may as well start understanding now that this 2.7 is just a 21st century small block. The legend status will come.

Don’t hold out for 20 years hanging onto the old legends through emotional(bias) response and miss opportunity to get in early and enjoy the next generation of legends. Pretty amazing drive, you’ll have to try one. I’ve had a 5.3, it was a guzzling dog by comparison, I just handed over a new 6.2 and it’s a guzzling beast, no question I’d take the 6.2 over the 5.3. For versatile efficient truck duty I’m in the 2.7 as I don’t do diesel for other reasons. Very thankful for the choice as I won’t be in anything naturally aspirated again.

Edited July 5, 2022 by 4banger

KARNUT · July 5, 2022

Being I grew up in the so called muscle car area the bigger the V-8 the better. Was the rule. My wife insistence on smaller cars slowly change my mind. Her Acura intagra type r and her Genesis cemented my change over. I spent some time in the seat of GNX too. By the time things settle down and inventory gets back to normal. I’m sure they’ll be tunes available for those 4 cylinders. With cheap plug in horsepower. Any advantage the V-8s have will easily be overcome. Trucks have become very versatile by demand. High performance sports vehicle statice has already been reached. For 20 years I laughed at my wife’s insistence on keeping her Acura. I slowly quit collecting muscle cars as hers and other non V-8 collector cars ascend in value. Fast and potent isn’t reserved for V-8s any longer. Hell if you really want to go fast. It’s hybrid and electric now.

customboss · July 5, 2022

I bought a 2.7L Custom Trail Boss because my 4.3L V6 was discontinued. I don't buy bells and whistle vehicles. I am retired, disabled, and not impressed by electric seats, leather, etc when basic interior suits my truck just fine for its intended use.

I raced cars professionally for Oldsmobile Road Racing, flew jets and helo's in military and professionally so going fast and pulling G's are in my past. Good basic transport is generally pretty low cost if maintained and driven moderately.

It cost less than the 4.3 and 6 speed and I got the 8 speed ( which with Amsoil ATL shifts better than the Mobil1 HP BTW).

I can achieve 26 mpg @ 60-65 mph with no or little wind. I am averaging over 20 mpg since delivery and purchase in November of 2021.

I deal with Snow for most of year, mud and off road to get back and forth to house and major snow drifting too. This Trail Boss Custom only let me down once last season and I buried it on center in extremely deep snow that had layers of ice to deal with.

I drove in 4WD yesterday down a very rugged short cut trail of about 6 miles to get my mail and it was getting 20 + mpg!

My 2.7 idles most of the time because they built it to operate around +/- 1500 RPM in low boost on 2 cylinders cruising with brief spurts of higher RPM but super responsive 22 psi of boost then back to cruising. Its a cheapo diesel engine really. There are towing techniques that if used can match the engine use to the load and you won't get low MPG but you won't drive 90 mph either.

The 3.0 Diesel is a wonderful design but check out the cost differential. My buddy has a AT4 with 3.0 diesel and he paid dearly for it while I got $2000 back for the 2.7L. I can buy some gas with that money when I need to tow.

BossTaco2020 · July 5, 2022

16 minutes ago, customboss said:

The 3.0 Diesel is a wonderful design but check out the cost differential. My buddy has a AT4 with 3.0 diesel and he paid dearly for it while I got $2000 back for the 2.7L. I can buy some gas with that money when I need to tow.

That's the rub isn't it? The 3.0 diesel performs great, but the engine is more expensive, fuel is more expensive, and then you have to buy cat piss (DEF) regularly. I don't have the time to compare the numbers, but in the end, are you really saving any money by going diesel? How much more expensive is maintaining a diesel truck vs a gas powered one?

That being said, I'll stick with my "pokey" 5.3L V8 until the turbo engines can dramatically improve in MPG.

KARNUT · July 5, 2022

I use to pull heavy. Only now 1 ton trucks are rated to pull what I was pulling in the 80s-2000s. In 1995 I bought a V-10 instead of the 5.9 Cummins. I wanted the horsepower as well as the TQ. The difference in price paid for the first 40K in fuel. Right at 40K pulling a hill in third at about twice the RPM the diesel would be. The mighty V-10 gave up. My brother brought me my old 91 Cummins dodge with 150K trouble free miles to finish my demos. Diesels are still king of the steady diet of pulling. Mainly because of the down low power.

BossTaco2020 · July 5, 2022

Yeah I forgot that we really need to buy the truck that suits our personal uses for the truck as there is no "one size fits all" model out there. I had a 21' boat and I only have one vehicle (single dad) so I needed a truck good on gas mileage, could tow my boat comfortably, and was big enough for me and my kids when we go places (including offroad). The 5.3L LT TB was the right fit for me. A diesel would have been overkill for what I was towing and since I do a lot of driving the kids back and forth to school, the diesel would have sucked in the city for that. Now that I don't have my boat, I'm thinking the 2.7L Turbo would be better suited, but I'm not about to trade in my truck for maybe a 1-2MPG difference. I'm thinking it would have to be in the 10MPG difference before I'd consider moving. The 6.2L makes no sense for me (not saying it doesn't for others) considering my use-cases.

customboss · July 5, 2022

19 minutes ago, BossTaco2020 said:

Yeah I forgot that we really need to buy the truck that suits our personal uses for the truck as there is no "one size fits all" model out there. I had a 21' boat and I only have one vehicle (single dad) so I needed a truck good on gas mileage, could tow my boat comfortably, and was big enough for me and my kids when we go places (including offroad). The 5.3L LT TB was the right fit for me. A diesel would have been overkill for what I was towing and since I do a lot of driving the kids back and forth to school, the diesel would have sucked in the city for that. Now that I don't have my boat, I'm thinking the 2.7L Turbo would be better suited, but I'm not about to trade in my truck for maybe a 1-2MPG difference. I'm thinking it would have to be in the 10MPG difference before I'd consider moving. The 6.2L makes no sense for me (not saying it doesn't for others) considering my use-cases.

WORD

4banger · July 5, 2022

4 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I’m sure they’ll be tunes available for those 4 cylinders.

I’m guessing that will be coming also although I’d be curious what they hope to gain on the 22?

It’s at 77.5 hp and 107.5 ft/lbs torque per cylinder. It’s already doing significantly more output per cc than a lot of motors on market, I’m starting to wonder what’s actually doing more specific output per cc?

I’ve stared at a lot of this stuff for a long time and this is one of few motors that I’ve seen stock that I would do nothing with or want more from. The gen1 I would look for a tune to get the torque over 400 but the gen2 is there and then some. It’s got more torque now than original gen1 cummins and weighs 1/3rd of that legend. Incredible imo.

4banger · July 5, 2022

1 hour ago, BossTaco2020 said:

“I'm thinking the 2.7L Turbo would be better suited, but I'm not about to trade in my truck for maybe a 1-2MPG difference.”

I messed up the part I wanted to quote so there’s a copy paste above.

You’re more or less just doing pre research for your next truck.

It mostly makes sense for new truck buyers to do their research and include the 2.7 in that research as getting past the old four banger institutions and understanding the objective brilliance of this motor then it becomes a serious contender for more buyers than not.

No one is suggesting sell a perfectly good truck to get this motor. Just consider it when it’s time for new truck.

Edited July 5, 2022 by 4banger
Did quote wrong

KARNUT · July 5, 2022

13 minutes ago, 4banger said:

I’m guessing that will be coming also although I’d be curious what they hope to gain on the 22?

It’s at 77.5 hp and 107.5 ft/lbs torque per cylinder. It’s already doing significantly more output per cc than a lot of motors on market, I’m starting to wonder what’s actually doing more specific output per cc?

I’ve stared at a lot of this stuff for a long time and this is one of few motors that I’ve seen stock that I would do nothing with or want more from. The gen1 I would look for a tune to get the torque over 400 but the gen2 is there and then some. It’s got more torque now than original gen1 cummins and weighs 1/3rd of that legend. Incredible imo.

I’ve never left (well enough) alone. I’ve always wanted to have it available but rarely used it type of guy. My last 383 whipple blown 92 Chevy truck was around 12 years with me. Just general maintenance. If I was inclined to get a 2 door 4cylinder GM truck I wouldn’t be able to resist modifying. Doesn’t mean I’m racing at every chance. I like whiskey a lot, I don’t drink it every day.

4banger · July 5, 2022

8 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I’ve never left (well enough) alone. I’ve always wanted to have it available but rarely used it type of guy. My last 383 whipple blown 92 Chevy truck was around 12 years with me. Just general maintenance. If I was inclined to get a 2 door 4cylinder GM truck I wouldn’t be able to resist modifying. Doesn’t mean I’m racing at every chance. I like whiskey a lot, I don’t drink it every day.

I hear that, there’s something about those reg cab shorties with the turbo that would be a riot. I’d love to have two vehicles as that’s probably what I’d add lol. One to leave alone and one to make a fun and show ride. Hit some car shows with and maybe some stu stu sounds to get the fast and furious guys attention lol. I have watched the vids with exhaust and intake and bov’s and it’s tempting but not this time.

I just went down that road with my daily gladiator and it’s now getting a new motor so this one is staying stock as it’s already doing more than I could have hoped for.

customboss · July 5, 2022

7 minutes ago, 4banger said:

I hear that, there’s something about those reg cab shorties with the turbo that would be a riot.

Thats my prediction for Grumpy Bears replacement of his current hyper clean C1500 4.3L V6 WT1 known as Pepper.

4banger · July 5, 2022

3 hours ago, BossTaco2020 said:

That's the rub isn't it? The 3.0 diesel performs great, but the engine is more expensive, fuel is more expensive, and then you have to buy cat piss (DEF) regularly. I don't have the time to compare the numbers, but in the end, are you really saving any money by going diesel? How much more expensive is maintaining a diesel truck vs a gas powered one?

Yes I weighed this out on ecodiesel back in 2013/14 and didn’t the math. Total cost of ownership of the diesel started to break even and gain about 50,000 kms from recollection, maybe it was 50,000 miles? I go back and forth with the units too frequently to remember now but I ruled them out long ago for my needs.

The end of story was the diesel made financial sense for those who did massive mileage a year and or towed a lot of miles with real loads.

The disadvantages I saw were engine weight, engine complexity (more parts, emissions systems, another fluid to constantly add), more costly maintenances, and at the time fuel costed more from recollection as well.

So I live in a gasoline world. Except for the diesel fired heater on my offgrid trailer build.