Ethanol Fuels

[customboss]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:42 AM, Black02Silverado said:

I don't know how much ethanol to reduce deposits other than to use as much as you can. I can only go up to a 50/50 mix before I get a CEL.  I'll take the mileage hit all the time to get better performance, cleaner burn and that great exhaust smell. 

Since switching to E15 my tail pipe is literally showing NO SOOT. 

 

Oil analysis on the 2.7T fan club thread on test 6 shows better performance with a lower quality engine oil using E15 vs E10 in any octane. 

 

The 2022 LTD  L3B is not advertized to use anything higher than E15 but its capable of higher levels of ETOH. 

 

During my last cleaning using Amsoil PI ( used every 4000 miles for now) I found a different soot in tailpipe, it was the PI residual that is water soluble so I know its cleaning.   E10 or E0 soot is different and engine oil traces are also different. Can't wash it off without a solvent.  

 

Amsoil UCL used every other tank of E15 shows nothing in tail pipe.  I really am not sure its helpful except it lubes places on top of piston engine oil will not reach.  The cheaper Phillips 66 unbranded E15 I get from Maverik has very little additives for lubricity or "detergency" = dispersants or polymeric adds. 

 

Check out the last oil analysis result I will share here on the 2.7T fan thread.     
 

  https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/topic/222159-27-turbo-4-fan-club/?do=findComment&comment=2622063

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by customboss
add link to other thread

[customboss]

19 hours ago, Slvrado said:

Just want to add to this topic, i have a 2021 1500 with the 2.7L Ive run a heavy mix of E85 and got the CEL but the truck ran fine. I’m going to be switching to full tanks of e85 and see how it goes. Ill post data here too.

The CEL as I have shared here is just a fuel density warning. The ECM can adjust to the ethanol and will burn fine. I shared here a LONG TIME ago that most modern cars and trucks will only throw a fuel density code when that reads over 49.99999% ETOH.  Below that the trims and timing will respond appropriately with no code.  

[Grumpy Bear]

On 3/27/2023 at 2:42 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

Running with the CEL is telling you something is out of range and out of range is out of control.  Just be safe. 

 

Worth repeating. 

[customboss]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Worth repeating. 

Totally disagree. As I have tried to explain over and over its a pre-set threshold for fuel density measured in tank. The more dense ethanol in tank over a pre-set % which is usually > 50% doesn't harm a thing. Its set that way to stop nuisance CEL if you happen to fill with more than 15% ethanol fuel.  In the L3B case it can burn higher levels than E15 safely and capably. Probably up to 70% actual ethanol which most E85 blends will be in most of US.  In other words the fuel mapping and injectors are capable of properly handling E85 but GM doesnt want that out. The L3B is a whole different turbo baby.  Plug in your scanners with E85 in your L3B and see for yourself.  

[customboss]

@Grumpy Bear here’s proof of E85 in a Vespa scooter that performs like a super bike. CEL light on the whole time.  

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by customboss

[customboss]

R80 wonder what it is?????? Hint I don't know. 

 

 

Open in app or online Insight: How a 100-Year-Old Technical Paper Helped Take Acura to Rolex 24 Win HPD President David Salters reveals his company's solution for an oil dilution dilemma in the build up to the GTP class debut... JOHN DAGYS APR 12     SHARE   There were a number of unknowns heading into January’s Rolex 24 at Daytona for competitors in the reborn IMSA GTP category. With brand-new prototypes running a new hybrid powertrain on new Michelin tires and with a new renewable fuel from VP Racing Fuels, there was not much that manufacturers and teams could lean on from past WeatherTech SportsCar Championship seasons. Acura, which scored a 1-2 finish with its cutting-edge ARX-06 LMDh cars, was among those that overcame challenges in the immediate build-up to the Florida endurance classic that saw a rapid rate of development not only with the machinery but with the consumables. One of the wrenches thrown into the mix was the introduction of an 80 percent blend of renewable fuel, to be used exclusively in the GTP class, that inadvertently led to an oil contamination issue inside the powerplants. While each LMDh manufacturer dealt with the challenge in different ways, Honda Performance Development, Acura and Honda’s U.S.-based motorsports arm, went back into the automotive archives, with a technical paper that was written 100 years ago, to help solve a 21st century issue. HPD President David Salters tells the tale: "The fuel supplier did a brilliant job to move heaven and earth and get the fuel here but of course we were all running late (because of supply chain challenges). We started testing the fuel in November and we found some issues with oil dilution.  "This fuel is brand-new, it didn't really exist in the world before. What were we going to do about it?  "We noticed that we were getting quite a lot of fuel in the oil. Normally you might expect 1 or 2 percent and this was ten times more than that. I think most people would know that fuel is not the best lubricant in the world; in fact it's about the worst lubricant.  "So you don't really want it in your beautiful 2.4-liter highly stressed 700 horsepower racing engine. Bad things will happen if you don't look after it. "We got some very clever measurement equipment that helped us so we could measure and understand. Then we started to sweep parameters.  "But one of the guys who leads our development (Jason), went away to get the books out and understand what causes oil dilution.  "These days it doesn't happen very often but it used to happen a long time ago when fuels and lubricants were very different. The quantities we get now are minuscule. In the early days of new stuff, like a new fuel now, you got quite a lot. "We actually found a paper that was 100 years old. A group at a university had modeled the equilibrium status of how fuel and oil interact.  “So we did loads of classical sums and we were able to use a 100-year-old paper with 21st century measuring equipment and we were able to figure out how the oil and fuel would reach an equilibrium state.” The analysis, performed over the Christmas break at HPD’s headquarters in Santa Clarita, Calif., helped to ensure that both the Meyer Shank Racing and Wayne Taylor Racing with Andretti Autosport entries got to the end of the Rolex 24 without encountering engine-related issues. "We have libraries here [at HPD] for technical papers and they are typically archived,” Salters explains. “We found some stuff that actually modeled, depending on some of your fuel chemistry and temperatures and stuff, how much fuel you could absorb in the oil.  "It had all been done by hand because everything was done by hand [back] then. So we had found these old models and we noticed we could correlate to, so we could start to predict mathematically the amount of fuel in the oil. "It actually reaches an equilibrium at some point. So we looked at the things that it depended on and found a way to manage it.” The two Acuras completed oil flushes, essentially a rapid oil change, several times during routine pit stops that helped mitigate the issue over the course of the twice-around-the-clock enduro. "We kept it at a manageable proportion and we understood how much oil we needed to change to keep it the right way and then we've since done other things where we're able to reduce it,” Salters explains. "At Sebring we had it all under control. We just kept learning and we're still learning. We’re now working with the oil supplier, who now knows a bit more about it on how to deal with it, and we can change some of the running conditions so we don't put as much fuel in the oil. "We've done the engineering and now it's more-or-less under control now. We don't have to do anything special anymore." Salters, who was one of the proponents for a switch to a renewable fuel, praised IMSA’s adoption of the new blend, even if it created some initial headaches in the critical weeks leading up to the season opener. "The best thing you can do is empower the people,” he says. “The engineers went away, went back to basics, got the books out, and found a solution. "We had this machine from the 21st century and a technical paper that was helping us from 100 years ago. It was good old fashioned engineering with the modern stuff.” Photos: Mike Levitt & Rick Dole

[Grumpy Bear]

Let's see. CEL is like the ECM's idiot light except it trips for a multitude of reasons. IF you run with it on constantly then when a fatal error is triped.....well it won't. At best you go to limp mode. At worst you go BOOM!

 

The sensor is there for a reason. Alcohol content varies. Fuel requirements and spark maps vary by percent alcohol content. None E-85 motors may not have enough injector or pump head room. +30% is a bit number for a stock injector/pump. 

 

If your ECU reads AFR your screwed without a sensor. If it reads Lambda the spark table is screwed. 

 

"I got away with it" tuning is a poor way to tune. 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Update:

 

8K miles and over a year now on E-85 at 75%, save winter at 40% where I hardly drive Pepper. Current OCI is at 3K and the oil visually looks better than our 2014 Buick Verano on E-10 87 at 1,500 miles. Very low mile motor. 16,500 miles. Fact is, it is only slightly darker than new, on the stick. This is a clean fuel. Very clean fuel. 

 

Long term trends say I lost about 6.5 mpg from the lifetime 28 average. About a 24% loss. Less than carbon balance would indicate. (30%).  And I haven't been playing into its hand. Lower tire pressures. Higher HTHS oil. Average speed is up about 5 mph and more town driving than historical. Cooler trans temperatures which increase viscosity. Ditto oil temps. 

 

Another plus. GDI likes to dilute viscosity with fuel. Alcohol has a very low boiling point so even when it is, it isn't. It leaves easier than water vapor. What is not to like? As long as I have access. I'll use it.  

[Black02Silverado]

On 8/22/2023 at 12:21 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

Update:

 

8K miles and over a year now on E-85 at 75%, save winter at 40% where I hardly drive Pepper. Current OCI is at 3K and the oil visually looks better than our 2014 Buick Verano on E-10 87 at 1,500 miles. Very low mile motor. 16,500 miles. Fact is, it is only slightly darker than new, on the stick. This is a clean fuel. Very clean fuel. 

 

Long term trends say I lost about 6.5 mpg from the lifetime 28 average. About a 24% loss. Less than carbon balance would indicate. (30%).  And I haven't been playing into its hand. Lower tire pressures. Higher HTHS oil. Average speed is up about 5 mph and more town driving than historical. Cooler trans temperatures which increase viscosity. Ditto oil temps. 

 

Another plus. GDI likes to dilute viscosity with fuel. Alcohol has a very low boiling point so even when it is, it isn't. It leaves easier than water vapor. What is not to like? As long as I have access. I'll use it.  

Yes, E85 is the way to go.  That is why I converted our 2016 Suburban.  When the price comes down some I plan on converting my 2019 silverado. 

 

E85 has gotten a bad rap.  Sure, don't use it in small engines or where it isn't made to go to a point.  I do mix it in my Silverado but only at a 40% E85 to 60% premium.  Any higher mix and I get a CEL for running lean.  I ran my 2002 like that for over 40k miles with no issues.

 

Now if only a better quality diesel fuel was available here like in California.  That would go in my diesel Cruze.

[Grumpy Bear]

Mixing E85 With Pump Gas: Getting Higher Octane For Less Money (enginelabs.com)

 

I learned bunches from this link. Hope you enjoy it as well. 

 

Hint: BETX

[OnTheReel]

Okay, I have a question. Why does the price of E15 (88) swing so wildly? Sometimes it’s the same price as 87, most of the time it’s 5 cents cheaper, but today it was 40 cents cheaper. I definitely took that deal.
Just wondering how a mere 5% ethanol difference could basically disconnect it from following the same pricing trends as E10.

[Grumpy Bear]

6 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Okay, I have a question. Why does the price of E15 (88) swing so wildly? Sometimes it’s the same price as 87, most of the time it’s 5 cents cheaper, but today it was 40 cents cheaper. I definitely took that deal.
Just wondering how a mere 5% ethanol difference could basically disconnect it from following the same pricing trends as E10.

 

 

Around here UNL88 is anywhere from a dime cheaper to twenty cents higher. I find it depends on the marketing strategy. Same as E85. If they believe the market is tipping toward an octane play it's priced the same as mid-grade. If the play is eco, it can be 30% under 87. Price of anything these days seems separated from its value or cost to the seller.

 

I held up a bottle of Mexican Coke that sold for $2.19 to this very young teller and asked her if she knew what this cost when I was her age. "No" she nods.  

 

"A nickel" I respond. 

 

"It's imported" she quips. 

 

"So am I" I smile. "My living wage then was $2 an hour. I'd have to make $88 and hour to live the same today as I did then based on that price. Girl, inflation isn't a price increase. It's a buying power decrease. Wake up and loose the attitude". 

 

I've been told I can be somewhat of a "Richard".  I don't mind people being ignorant. I mind them wallowing in it. 

[customboss]

https://koehlerinstrument.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Recent-Advances-in-the-Realm-of-Cloud-Point-and-Pour-Point-Testing-Specifically-as-it-Relates-to-Biofuels.pdf