Ethanol Fuels

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, swathdiver said:

It's a start since only 3 types of cars were used.  Half the time when I pumped E30 I got 87 because the blending pumps were turned off after hours!  Wonder if they checked for that too?

 

SAE Update - February 2023 - 2 (nxtbook.com)

 

High Octane Fuel Study | BioEnergy KDF

 

In the study under question the parameters, in part, were LTFT's ability to hold O2 in the second cat to limits and they did even at E30. The other was corrosion and literally anything made since 2001 will handle it.

 

As the other supplied top link shows, hand blending will satisfy the octane requirements of any GDI vehicle requiring 87 Octane.

 

Have a GDI turbo? At 20% with 82 octane base fuel the octane is at or over 93. At 25% the minimum octane is over 95. 

[Black02Silverado]

Dodge just announce the new Demon 170 and it reaching 1025hp on E85.  Crazy numbers for a production vehicle. 

[xranger90]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:57 AM, Black02Silverado said:

Dodge just announce the new Demon 170 and it reaching 1025hp on E85.  Crazy numbers for a production vehicle. 

That's a big leap and could start a new trend in the automotive industry.

[Black02Silverado]

What gets me is all those out there that don't like E85.  Nothing wrong with it in anything newer than 2002.  Now I agree not to use in anything other than passenger vehicles.

 

What is mostly wrong with all our ICE vehicles is they run on crappy fuel.  So much could be done to better the environment and make engines last longer if we had a high quality fuel.

 

[diyer2]

Why do you believe we have poor quality fuel.

[Grumpy Bear]

38 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Why do you believe we have poor quality fuel.

 

@customboss and I have run this rabbit to death. There seem to be two parts to this. Perspective is one. That is fuel now is 'better' than it was 50 years ago.

 

The other perspective, which is what customboss an @Black02Silverado are talking about, is based on aromatic content of gasoline and the polymer-based additives required to prevent them from deposit formation short term, gum. Tis the part of fuel that leaves carbon and generates oxides of nitrogen that create acids that deplete oil additives. Aromatics are what gives gasoline it's knock resistant properties so it isn't like they can be removed. 

 

So, the higher the alcohol content the smaller the aromatic and polymer load that is processed during combustion, the cleaner the motor runs both internally and environmentally. 

[customboss]

9 hours ago, diyer2 said:

Why do you believe we have poor quality fuel.

I base it on 40+ years of OEM and independent engine test cell observance, backed with emissions bags, oil analysis, and then engine teardown R&D testing BOTH compression and IC spark engines for deposits formation.  Our fuels HAVE NOT kept up with EGR, DI, aftertreatment, and turbo and supercharging our computer controlled engines. 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

I base it on 40+ years of OEM and independent engine test cell observance, backed with emissions bags, oil analysis, and then engine teardown R&D testing BOTH compression and IC spark engines for deposits formation.  Our fuels HAVE NOT kept up with EGR, DI, aftertreatment, and turbo and supercharging our computer controlled engines. 

 

 

For the longest time I thought you meant by "fuels' gasoline. You meant something quite different. Boy, do I feel stupid. 

 

 

[customboss]

13 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

For the longest time I thought you meant by "fuels' gasoline. You meant something quite different. Boy, do I feel stupid. 

 

 

What do SPARK engines run on in US predominantly?  You said it......

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

What do SPARK engines run on in US predominantly?  You said it......

 

Okay so not so stupid. You were speaking about gasoline.  Huff huff, (me catching my breath)  

 

As a chemical engineer by craft then you know that saying 'The fuels haven't kept up" is a bit misleading. That is, the statement implies there is something MORE that could be done when pretty much what can be done to the hydrocarbon, has been. Take out the aromatics and there isn't anything left an SI engine will run on. You couldn't even call what is left gasoline. It's a cut of the barrel. 

 

[customboss]

Not misleading anyone and done attempting to explain my points to you. 

 

You just want to see, read, hear yourself on the internet banging a gong with half questions and internet trolling. I am done with entertaining you and your ilk.  "Showing your work" is bloviating about R&D level things you learned on the fly on the internet.  I thought I could engage and trust you.  I was wrong. You are a internet troll and bully.  You also have little expertise to share about oil analysis which is the single most effective tool for the average Joe to see what is going on in near real time in our engines.  

 

Stick with what you know.  Be careful assuming all you currently do.  Find another info source to manipulate I am done.  

 

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Not misleading anyone and done attempting to explain my points to you. 

 

You just want to see, read, hear yourself on the internet banging a gong with half questions and internet trolling. I am done with entertaining you and your ilk.  "Showing your work" is bloviating about R&D level things you learned on the fly on the internet.  I thought I could engage and trust you.  I was wrong. You are a internet troll and bully.  You also have little expertise to share about oil analysis which is the single most effective tool for the average Joe to see what is going on in near real time in our engines.  

 

Stick with what you know.  Be careful assuming all you currently do.  Find another info source to manipulate I am done.  

 

 

My assuming I'm wrong is how I let people get their size 12 out of their mouth. Sometimes I actually am. You ever admit you've been wrong, ever? 

 

That's twice now you've resorted to name calling.  

 

What do you think you have I need so badly that I would manipulate you for it?   Nothing, that's what. 

 

How did I break your trust? By disagreeing with you? Get a grip and take a lollypop on the way out. 

 

 

[diyer2]

All I know is I have never had a problem with fuel/gas. I have fixed some vehicles and lawn equipment for neighbors that left fuel in them and fouled up the carburetor. Same holds true for a few outboards. 

My simple methods of changing fluids, using fuel system cleaners, replacing some parts as needed or before the manual says to has served me well.

No scientific approach.

I see no point or benefit trying to prove I know more than anyone. It's sad to me to see 2 grown men try to prove who's wrong. WHY? 

I won't waste my time.

This type of chest thumping happens on every forum I belong to. Sad IMO.

Put your ego's aside and let people believe what they want. 

 

My opinion like always, you do what makes you happy.

 

[KARNUT]

I’ve never had a problem with bad gas. I have one car that gets 1 tank per year. Sometimes I remember stabill. It’s going on 22 years. Only one car had injection cleaning. It’s 12 years old. Didn’t notice any difference. Buy most of my gas locally at my Krogers store with my discount card. It’s not even top tier. On trips I stop at truck stops. Mostly Loves. Always high volume locations. 

[Grumpy Bear]

31 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I see no point or benefit trying to prove I know more than anyone.

It's sad to me to see 2 grown men try to prove who's wrong. 

 

Then you misunderstand me sir. More or less has nothing to do with this exchange and I am more than happy to be wrong.

 

I'm aware that I can be wrong in two ways. Ignorance, of which I am greatly so; and happy as a clam at high tide when that void is filled by anyone. And secondly error. Something I think know I've adopted because reason and logic and many convincing proofs have assured me of its value. If this error is to be corrected, then it MUST be displaced by the same method it was adopted. Reason, logic, convincing proofs. 

 

Thar requires dialogue and thoughtful presentation, and REASON demands that it withstand the test of CHALLANGE.

 

Dragging out credentials and debasing oneself by name calling only convince me of one's inability to meet that challenge.

 

Labeling that demand as being a Bully is irrational. You know my stance on irrational and unreasonable people. I have little use for those that cannot respect boundaries.  

 

This tread is about Ethanol as a fuel. How about we get back to that?

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
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