Top Tier Gas

[KARNUT]

I live close to town with a major interstate running through. Along the freeway the prices are all the same obviously doesn’t matter the brand. The farther away the higher the price. The only real difference is if you belong to a club like Sams five cents off or a store like Kroger’s. Kroger’s discounted for purchase. I've gotten as much as 1$ off. My wife’s Genesis is closing on 115K miles on mostly Sams gas. A non top tier. 95 percent in town driving. Every 30K miles they scream injection cleaning. At 100K spark plugs. Ain’t happening. Maybe it performs a little worse I don’t notice. Last time I floored it was when I dusted my brothers Hemi challenger. In town gas mileage is still around 22 mpg just like new. They say around here everything bigger and better in Texas, maybe it’s that. 

[Grumpy Bear]

The fuel is fine. The GDI system is JUNK. 

 

Man these cookies taste like crap dunked in cat pee. Darn cookies are going to the dogs.

 

Yea, this thread makes that kind of sense. 

 

GDI gets OEMs to meet some 'goals' with greater ease and longevity is not one of those goals. 

 

SULEV emissions have been met since 2000 by Honda with SPFI. They did not adopt GDI until 2012 and then only for fuel economy although they had technology since the 1980's to equal anything anyone else was producing. 

 

https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases/release-a6a7bce1d671bbfc0c2b04004c34c908-2000-honda-accord-ahead-of-its-time-first-sulev-on-the-market

[customboss]

Your analogy lost me but I am trying Grumpy!  

 

EPA,CARB, and SULEV is  geared to lowering emissions and greenhouse gases something very few here care about.  

 

2000 model cars are a different species to the FREIGHTLINER SUV/TRUCKS we expect to get 20 MPG all the time now. 

 

I am speaking to the best leverage a  GM truck owner can get to make his unit run well. Not relying on luck or the Hyundai Genesis having a ball busting awesome build for their V8 ( designed and built by former ford engineers that went to Hyundai about 20 years ago).  

 

OEM's went to GDI because they could not meet emissions and efficiency that was required. If the fuel was better quality DIZZY and all of us wouldn't be asking about top tier.  TOP TIER implies the fuel you refined then and now doesn't stand on its own.  It has to have additives that have nothing to do with combustion to clean the varnish, shellac, CARBON remaining from incomplete combustion.  DI makes that crap that isn't refined enough or ideally SYNTHESIZED to burn cleaner. 

 

Yes you refined in fewer steps for cost mitigation but the fuels today and from yesterday left too many deposits or didn't burn completely. 

 

Porsche is so sick of crappy gasoline they are making their own synthesized methane based E gasolines.  https://carbuzz.com/news/porsches-synthetic-fuel-is-all-the-pleasure-with-none-of-the-guilt

 

All the oil companies have tested GTL and other processes but someone in this thread I think DIYER2 said it straight, the consumer doesn't care about anything but cost and oil companies care about  nothing but  PROFIT AND GREED. 

 

Is anyone here running synthesized gasolines or at least VP or other fuels?  Let us know how they burn compared to pump stuff please. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by customboss
add link to porsche synthetic gasoline

[Grumpy Bear]

What are we hearing when I say GASOLINE?

Chocolate Mousse?

 

I'm not arguing that gasoline is cleaner than syngas, propane, alcohols, methane or hydrogen.

 

I'm saying GASOLINE made today is cleaner and more refined than GASOLINE from 40 years ago. And I'm not arguing it. I'm saying it straight up as a person that refined that crap for DECADES. It is CHEMICALLY defined and governmentally controlled. The process improved. The equipment improved. The control improved. Less steps my eye. Platformers, Reformation are not new processes. Been around since before we "Got the lead out". There are MORE steps not less.  

 

Top Tier is NOT the refining process.

It IS the additive package.

 

I'm also saying that todays fuels work great in PRE GDI motors with FEWER ISSUES than 40 year old fuels. Thus.....

 

  Man these cookies taste like crap dunked in cat pee. Darn cookies are going to the dogs.

 

It isn't the GASOLINE (cookies) killing GDI motors. It's the GDI method. (Cat Pee).

 

This gas isn't killing SPFI, TBI or mechanical types such as Bosch or even carburetor motors. There are millions of SPFI motors on the road without oil side fuel related problems such as ring coking. 

 

Now if you would like to poke the pooch feel free but not sure what more I can say if we are not 'on point'. Topic is Top Tier GASOLINE, not the benefits of alternate fuels. 

 

[KARNUT]

I never worked in a refinery but I use gas. Have cars and lawnmowers that gas sits in awhile. My wife’s Acura gets a fill up once a year. My lawn mower sits 6 months with the same gas. My last 3 mowers never needed a fuel filter. I can’t remember changing a vehicle fuel filter. My experience shows me gas is better. Vehicles trying to squeeze a little more fuel mileage seems to be the problem. Same with oil. 

[Black02Silverado]

My take.

 

Manufactures are putting out sub par engines.  Case in point, the engine design that Grumpy has is a known issues.  Why is  it having all kinds of problems when other GM 4cly are doing just fine.  Trying to build on the least expensive parts available and make more profit just doesn't go well.  They would rather deal with the aftermath then build something that would last and give good service.

 

Look at what is happening with all the lifter issues.  Lowest bidder got the bid and now GM has to replace and acquire new updated design lifters.  They shouldn't be going bad in just 3k miles on a new engine.  Yes, there is just a handful compared to what is out there but really???

 

Is it really that hard to build an engine that can achieve a great piston to cylinder seal and  provide power with reliability.  It isn't like they need to worry about having long lasting vehicles on the road.  To many out there that buy new every year just to get the latest and greatest.  It amazes me to see individuals that will get a new 21 model, only to trade with in a year just to get the refresh 22 model.  No lack of buyers out there.  My pockets are not that deep.

 

Also what I can't figure out is there are vehicles waiting on chips but yet manufactures are pumping out new models the best they can.  Some individuals are waiting on vehicles they placed orders for months ago.  But yet GM has these pretty refreshed models hitting the showroom floors, while others wait on what they order.  Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Ethanol burns cleaner and does a great job. This speaks to me of the quality of a great fuel over regular gasoline that has to be treated to combat what ethanol doesn't produce.

 

All for the all mighty $$$ and it's sad.  To  me offer a 98 octane fuel only, charge accordingly and forget all these different octane levels.  98 would burn well in any engine and engine designs could be built to take advantage of the octane.  Having one option sure would eliminate the "what octane should I use?" question.

 

Like Customboss posted, Porsche is looking into a better fuel. 

 

California, yes, that state is amazing on so many levels, Propel has a cleaner burning diesel and those that use it are not having any issues like with our basic diesel from what I have read.  Sure it cost more but if the vehicle performs better and with less issues, it is worth it.  Sadly their fuel is only available in California.  Wish it was here on the east coast.  I would use it.

[newdude]

On 3/29/2022 at 4:11 AM, LAAC said:

I have a 20' Silverado LT 5.3L. The manual says to put top tier gas in the tank but I haven't found any gas stations in my location (Northern VA) that sell top tier gas. Could not using top tier gas eventually harm my engine?

 

 

Typically most stations that do have Top Tier ironically enough only offer Top Tier in the highest octane, 90 or higher.

 

 

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I'm also saying that todays fuels work great in PRE GDI motors with FEWER ISSUES than 40 year old fuels. Thus.....

 

  Man these cookies taste like crap dunked in cat pee. Darn cookies are going to the dogs.

 

It isn't the GASOLINE (cookies) killing GDI motors. It's the GDI method. (Cat Pee).

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm.  To me, the bigger issue with GDI is PCV oil vapor control.  GDI allows for super fine and controlled fuel dispersal compared to anything prior.  OEM's have achieved more power on NA and boosted applications than ever before with it.  The enemy to me is PCV and no fuel wash to clean the intake path to the back of the intake valve(s).  

 

39 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

Look at what is happening with all the lifter issues.  Lowest bidder got the bid and now GM has to replace and acquire new updated design lifters.  They shouldn't be going bad in just 3k miles on a new engine.  Yes, there is just a handful compared to what is out there but really???

 

 

Just for some clarification, the lifter design hasn't changed.  The lifter issue was all the result of a supplier issue, be it supplier change or manufacturing.  GM still uses the same design lifter, and the current part # goes all the way back to the first engines to use AFM back in 2006.

[Grumpy Bear]

59 minutes ago, newdude said:

Hmmm.  To me, the bigger issue with GDI is PCV oil vapor control.  GDI allows for super fine and controlled fuel dispersal compared to anything prior.  OEM's have achieved more power on NA and boosted applications than ever before with it.  The enemy to me is PCV and no fuel wash to clean the intake path to the back of the intake valve(s).  

 

Yes there are some major advantages to GDI. I highlighted a line above. The underlined word in that highlight is key.

 

GDI disperses atomized fuel. All other methods vaporize fuel. Problem is...only VAPOR burns. True, this super fine mist has allot of surface area and that drastically reduces the transition time to vapor COMPAIRED to larger droplets in COLD SPFI motors. But SPFI is vapor before it enters the combustion chamber once up to temp. That other word is more on point. CONTROLLED. That is it's real advantage. 

 

As you note GDI also allows for some conditions that are not favorable. Via the VVT the MAP is so close to atmospheric during most of the load cycle that as you note, very on point, the PCV system struggles to maintain proper evacuation of the crankcase.  In the days of carburation we knew that best economy occurred at the highest manifold vacuum (lowest MAP) as gasoline under high vacuum and hot temps is a total vapor and burns more completely and more rapidly. Today GDI motors run lightly loaded at vacuum levels near full power for a carburetor motor. That CONTROL you spoke of now comes into play. Economy doesn't come in a GDI motor from complete vaporization but from complete control of the AFR in a way a carb can not and only a hand full of TBI/SPFI systems ever did. Honda duel wide band SPFI systems, a glaring example, were a stunning examples of what can be done without tossing baby out with the bath water. 1998 Civic HX systems are still not being surpassed compare to other NA motors in power to economy to cleanliness manor. 

 

So yes, that was a long way to say I agree that the PCV system is underperforming and this is because of the of the conditions GDI permit and the engineers take advantage of that work against the PVC system. This build up of fuel in the crankcase deposits lacquers/varnish at a rate not seen in systems with a proper venting system. It's the same fuel used in non GDI motors even with low tension rings that rarely ever cause an issue. 

 

But is still the same fuel. 

 

As for only the highest octane fuels being Top Tier. Not true. 

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/fuel-economy-efficiency/top-tier-gasoline-worth-the-extra-price-a7682471234/

 

Keeping things simple for consumers, when a participating retailer sells Top Tier fuel, all octane grades from regular to premium gasoline and diesel must adhere to the Top Tier standards. So it is not necessary for drivers to upgrade to premium to gain the cleansing benefits. 

 

 

See those last two words? Repeat. Top Tier is an additive package. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I never worked in a refinery but I use gas. Have cars and lawnmowers that gas sits in awhile. My wife’s Acura gets a fill up once a year. My lawn mower sits 6 months with the same gas. My last 3 mowers never needed a fuel filter. I can’t remember changing a vehicle fuel filter. My experience shows me gas is better. Vehicles trying to squeeze a little more fuel mileage seems to be the problem. Same with oil. 

Statistical significance of 1 = anecdote.   

 

What is an anecdote in statistics?

 

 

"An anecdote is a statistic with a sample size of one. OK, maybe a sample size of a small group of your closest friends and fellow travelers. We fall for this all the time.Aug 21, 2015"

[customboss]

11 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

What are we hearing when I say GASOLINE?

Chocolate Mousse?

 

I'm not arguing that gasoline is cleaner than syngas, propane, alcohols, methane or hydrogen.

 

I'm saying GASOLINE made today is cleaner and more refined than GASOLINE from 40 years ago. And I'm not arguing it. I'm saying it straight up as a person that refined that crap for DECADES. It is CHEMICALLY defined and governmentally controlled. The process improved. The equipment improved. The control improved. Less steps my eye. Platformers, Reformation are not new processes. Been around since before we "Got the lead out". There are MORE steps not less.  

 

Top Tier is NOT the refining process.

It IS the additive package.

 

I'm also saying that todays fuels work great in PRE GDI motors with FEWER ISSUES than 40 year old fuels. Thus.....

 

  Man these cookies taste like crap dunked in cat pee. Darn cookies are going to the dogs.

 

It isn't the GASOLINE (cookies) killing GDI motors. It's the GDI method. (Cat Pee).

 

This gas isn't killing SPFI, TBI or mechanical types such as Bosch or even carburetor motors. There are millions of SPFI motors on the road without oil side fuel related problems such as ring coking. 

 

Now if you would like to poke the pooch feel free but not sure what more I can say if we are not 'on point'. Topic is Top Tier GASOLINE, not the benefits of alternate fuels. 

 

 

Grumpy we'll be debating ourselves here now.......sadly.  

 

 

The primary feedstock chemical composition never changed except in many cases its heavier dirtier crude which is harder to refine.   Thus your extra steps. One reason we can't refine Venezuelan crude right now is US refineries aren't set up for it. 

 

Right now US refineries are  mostly set up to process/ refine lighter crude in mass. 

 

Regardless if its oil from the ground its a poor feedstock to make good quality spark engine fuel, especially modern engines.  

 

"Not all crude oil is the same

The physical characteristics of crude oil determine how refineries process it. In simple terms, crude oils are classified by density (API gravity) and sulfur content. Less dense (lighter) crude oils (with higher API gravity) generally have a larger share of light hydrocarbons. Refineries can produce high-value products such as gasoline, diesel fuel, and jet fuel from light crude oil with simple distillation. When refineries use simple distillation on denser (heavier) crude oils (with lower API gravity), they produce low-value products. Heavy crude oils require additional, more expensive processing to produce high-value products. Some crude oils also have a high sulfur content, which is an undesirable characteristic in both processing and product quality. " 

 

 

YES Vaporization is  one of three things that must happen to burn gasoline. It must be atomized (broken into small particles); emulsified (mixed with air); and vaporized (changed into a rarefied form). Only then is gasoline a suitable fuel for an internal combustion engine. Improving atomization is a good thing not a bad thing,  IF THE FUEL IS APPROPRIATE to the design and burns fully.  Its the trash in our mandated gasolines that is THE problem.   So we overfuel an inappropriate fuel for the engine designs..... WHY??? 

 

DI engines were required to meet EPA requirements on emissions and MPG demands. On the other hand the oil industry is able to get by with their mandated EPA regional fuels requirements and guess who wins with government requirements?  The oil companies because they have more $$ to fight while OEM's get beat up.  

 

My main point is that fossil fuels are not clean enough to burn fully and operate cleanly in our current and future engine designs. 

 

AGREED Top Tier is additive driven generally not mandated fuels mix.  Mostly polymer.  I have stated this ad nausem here that the polymers can become deposits like in DIZZY.  

 

 

 

 

Note I have had oil analysis customers over the years that ran that same basic DI twin cam 2.4 GM engine and they did not have as severe issues as yours.  Reason is that at say 50000 miles we caught the issues and made sure it sparked and fueled more  ideally burning off that unburnt, partially burnt, and lowered deposit formation. 

 

The fact is people are having serious issues like you with deposits using factory recommended or better maintenance and service, gasolines are mandated for the most part so thats consistent, and most DI engines develop deposits that can crash an engine with the consumer doing best they can. 

 

OEM's are doing best they can generally, THE GASOLINE that IS EPA APPROVED is not clean enough to burn properly. Thats the common denominator. 

 

An aside :   DI engines because of their ability to atomize so well burn very clean in spite of fuel feedstock when operating ideally.... HOWEVER modern VVT engines add DI atomized fuel to COOL the cylinder and piston,..... AND because the fuel feedstock is so crappy  its needs TOP TIER ADDITIVES to clean the burned deposits off but a KEY TAKEAWAY is that gasoline  can lubricate and cool with proper additization which brings in the polymers.   So consumers who are lucky like KARNUT and others here are getting a ring and cylinder lubrication boost with those additives because they aren't fully burned off initially at application BDC and as the piston moves up ideally that load is burned off.  

 

In Dizzy's case it over time made shellac and carbon deposits at ring lands and rings, impacting cylinder seal.  

 

So if you want better MPG in a DI engine using  a proper dispersant additive system based on different forms of polymers can lubricate and get you a drop in friction on ring cylinder interface. 

 

Why OEM's recommend top tier in critical DI engines..

 

Balancing an inadequate feedstock gasoline with additives to leverage that fuel to help the engine is a tight threshold. 

 

Why I generally use CENEX here in Colorado. It works even when I run 85 octane in a 2.7 turbo that requires 87 octane.  I'm experimenting with 87 and 91 to garner a boost. If you look at my oil analysis shared on the oil change thread here everything is perfect except 1.3-1.9 % fuels dilution from that cooling affect that is by design.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[customboss]

2 hours ago, newdude said:

Hmmm.  To me, the bigger issue with GDI is PCV oil vapor control.  GDI allows for super fine and controlled fuel dispersal compared to anything prior.  OEM's have achieved more power on NA and boosted applications than ever before with it.  The enemy to me is PCV and no fuel wash to clean the intake path to the back of the intake valve(s).  

Indeed see my explanation and what happens when gasoline is shot into a cylinder at even BDC. 

 

As Grumpy stated accurately TOPTIER status claims now must cover all gasoline octane grades for a seller of fuel.  You are correct years ago they tried to promote " Premium" as more than just higher octane and it was a sham. 

 

I wonder how much the excess fuels dilute in all our engines contributed to the metallurgy defects failing so soon? 

 

From 42 years of work in engine, fuels and lubricants testing not many engine oils can handle more than 0.5% fuels dilute ESPECIALLY if you extend the oil drain interval. 

 

 

 

 

[customboss]

2 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

Ethanol burns cleaner and does a great job. This speaks to me of the quality of a great fuel over regular gasoline that has to be treated to combat what ethanol doesn't produce.

 

No additives in ethanol because its so clean to begin with. If you have a feedstock that needs no refining thats a good example of no garbage in, no garbage out. 

 

Sadly our system is set up to burn fossil based feedstock. 

 

Production

The production method of ethanol depends on the type of feedstock used. The process is shorter for starch- or sugar-based feedstocks than with cellulosic feedstocks.

Starch- and Sugar-Based Ethanol Production

Most ethanol in the United States is produced from starch-based crops by dry- or wet-mill processing. Nearly 90% of ethanol plants are dry mills due to lower capital costs. Dry-milling is a process that grinds corn into flour and ferments it into ethanol with co-products of distillers grains and carbon dioxide. Wet-mill plants primarily produce corn sweeteners, along with ethanol and several other co-products (such as corn oil and starch). Wet mills separate starch, protein, and fiber in corn prior to processing these components into products, such as ethanol.

Cellulosic Production

Making ethanol from cellulosic feedstocks—such as grass, wood, and crop residues—is a more involved process than using starch-based crops. There are two primary pathways to produce cellulosic ethanol: biochemical and thermochemical. The biochemical process involves a pretreatment to release hemicellulose sugars followed by hydrolysis to break cellulose into sugars. Sugars are fermented into ethanol and lignin is recovered and used to produce energy to power the process. The thermochemical conversion process involves adding heat and chemicals to a biomass feedstock to produce syngas, which is a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Syngas is mixed with a catalyst and reformed into ethanol and other liquid co-products.

To read more about the conversion process, see Process Design and Economics for Biochemical Conversion of Lignocellulosic Biomass to Ethanol: Dilute-Acid Pretreatment and Enzymatic Hydrolysis of Corn Stover(PDF) and Process Design and Economics for Biochemical Conversion of Lignocellulosic Biomass to Ethanol: Thermochemical Pathway by Indirect Gasification and Mixed Alcohol Synthesis(PDF).

 

 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Statistical significance of 1 = anecdote.   

 

What is an anecdote in statistics?

 

 

"An anecdote is a statistic with a sample size of one. OK, maybe a sample size of a small group of your closest friends and fellow travelers. We fall for this all the time.Aug 21, 2015"

Karnut, I apologize for that comment.  You ran robust fleet for years so your observation is more than one person and one car.  

[KARNUT]

5 minutes ago, customboss said:

Karnut, I apologize for that comment.  You ran robust fleet for years so your observation is more than one person and one car.  

I’m a redneck that led life in a family business bubble I admit. I was pondering if you were slighting me. In that bubble we dealt and deal with many thousands of customers through 50 years of business. Business leaders and operators alike including major oil companies and arborist including the national forest service etc. The perception of follow rednecks only thinking about strip clubs and hunting deer is a misconception. You have defended the county, people like me and my family built it. We know our sh$t. We  suffer no fools. I’m glad you clarified. I really doesn’t matter. 

[customboss]

Here's a succinct point for those that want CLEAN fuels for GM GDI engines and in my case 2.7 Turbo 4.  

 

Using higher volume of AVAILABLE ethanol in your gasolines will lower soots, and lower shellac, varnish  formations that damages our engines over time.  

 

I know most posting here are happy with E10 or non ethanol gasoline fuels and thats great if you are lucky.  If they have an appropriate add pack of polymer dispersants they might clean up their mess over time..... 

 

Read this to see how gasoline compares to E25, compares to a new fuel formulation based on a newer bio fuel called  DMF. 

 

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef402234z#

 

ABSTRACT : 

Particulate matter (PM) composition and soot oxidation were investigated in a single-cylinder spray-guided direct-injection spark ignition (DISI) research engine using the thermogravimetric analysis (TGA) technique. Fuels including gasoline, ethanol, 25% volumetric blend of ethanol in gasoline (E25), and a new biofuel candidate (2,5-dimethylfuran, DMF) were studied. The engine was operated at 1500 rpm with a rich fuel/air ratio (λ = 0.9) and late fuel injection strategy, representing one of the worst scenarios of PM emissions from DISI engines. A TGA method featuring devolatilization and soot oxidization functions was developed and a kinetic model was used to analyze the soot oxidation process. The results show that volatile components are the main contributor to the PM produced from gasoline, E25, and DMF, and elemental soot accounts only up to 35% of PM mass at 8.5 bar IMEP. Ethanol combustion is so clean that only 6.3% of PM mass comes from elemental soot. The reaction rate of the soot oxidation is highly dependent on fuel and is sensitive to engine load. Soot from ethanol combustion is the most easily oxidized, indicated by the lowest temperature and activation energies (83 kJ/mol) required for oxidization. Soot from gasoline combustion is the most difficult to be oxidized, requiring the highest temperature and activation energy. It is found that the activation energy required for the soot from gasoline combustion increases with the engine load; however, the increase for soot from DMF combustion is very small.