BIOSYNTHETIC 5w20 / 5w30

Grumpy Bear · March 16, 2022

Snowcamo · March 16, 2022

To me not worth $10 a quart when a guy can just change his oil every 3k and have the same engine cleanliness.

Grumpy Bear · March 16, 2022

3 hours ago, Snowcamo said:

........ a guy can just change his oil every 3k and have the same engine cleanliness.

So...you've already tried this oil!!

Great!!!

Wait....same as what?

That is, if 3K is your cleanliness bench mark for whatever oil you are comparing it too,

Then....how many miles did BIOSYNTHETIC run to equal....

"the same engine cleanliness"?

Fair question, right?

It is your claim!

:lurk:

Snowcamo · March 16, 2022

Grump...

What I am speaking of is. The fact that if one sticks to the old days when guys actually worked on their own vehicles...

It would be clear as day especially with the detergents in the oils, that 3k oil changes even 200k+ would look like new or like the oil you posted.

I am not stating I have used that oil, just that a guy does not have to pay $10 a qt. To keep his engine clean.

That's all man. Not tryin to ruffle them there feathers

Grumpy Bear · March 16, 2022

8 minutes ago, Snowcamo said:

Grump...

What I am speaking of is. The fact that if one sticks to the old days when guys actually worked on their own vehicles...

It would be clear as day especially with the detergents in the oils, that 3k oil changes even 200k+ would look like new or like the oil you posted.

I am not stating I have used that oil, just that a guy does not have to pay $10 a qt. To keep his engine clean.

That's all man. Not tryin to ruffle them there feathers

Didn't think you were James.

I have one of the GM nightmare 2.4 Ecotec GDI motors that after knocking the rings loose once before went on a regiment of under 2,500 mile OCI's and stuck the rings AGAIN.

This oil came up in discussions concerning superior varnish control and it just sounded like you had tried it and knew something I could use.

In the case of these motors 3 to 5K did not fly. And now neither has 2-2.5K.

KARNUT · March 16, 2022

It’s very easy to ruffle some peoples feathers. I’m just wondering how many test sessions with analysis was personally performed. Inquiring minds want to know.

customboss · March 16, 2022

2 hours ago, Snowcamo said:

Grump...

What I am speaking of is. The fact that if one sticks to the old days when guys actually worked on their own vehicles...

It would be clear as day especially with the detergents in the oils, that 3k oil changes even 200k+ would look like new or like the oil you posted.

I am not stating I have used that oil, just that a guy does not have to pay $10 a qt. To keep his engine clean.

That's all man. Not tryin to ruffle them there feathers

API approved engine oils will not clean normally. They can do some cleaning of surface carbonaceous deposits with great depletion of the additives to do same. Shellac and varnish in high heat areas are not removed. Shellac and varnish in DI and turbo engines will form very fast so unless the base oils can clean you at best will keep the level of cleanliness at 3000 mile oil changes on modern engines.

KARNUT · March 17, 2022

1 hour ago, customboss said:

API approved engine oils will not clean normally. They can do some cleaning of surface carbonaceous deposits with great depletion of the additives to do same. Shellac and varnish in high heat areas are not removed. Shellac and varnish in DI and turbo engines will form very fast so unless the base oils can clean you at best will keep the level of cleanliness at 3000 mile oil changes on modern engines.

I’m curious are you making this claim using synthetic oil. I don’t believe any modern turbo DI engine suggest using anything but synthetic. Just about every manufacturer with those engines suggest 5K miles oil changes under extreme conditions.

Grumpy Bear · March 17, 2022

2 hours ago, customboss said:

API approved engine oils will not clean normally. They can do some cleaning of surface carbonaceous deposits with great depletion of the additives to do same. Shellac and varnish in high heat areas are not removed. Shellac and varnish in DI and turbo engines will form very fast so unless the base oils can clean you at best will keep the level of cleanliness at 3000 mile oil changes on modern engines.

While your words are true they fall on ears that do not grasp the difference between "Solvency' and "Detergency". Nor the difference between the word "detergent" as it applies to motor oil and their grandmothers TSP containing laundry detergent.

Grumpy Bear · March 17, 2022

5 hours ago, Snowcamo said:

It would be clear as day especially with the detergents in the oils, that 3k oil changes even 200k+ would look like new or like the oil you posted.

So you did look at the links! COOL!!

Did you happen to note that the OCI's were extended for that photo by 2 to 3X? Cost to use is then 1/2 to 1/3 of $10.

So $3.33 to $5 a quart to use at 15K OCI's. Normal synthetic oils at $5 a quart on 3K OCI's. Equivalent to $8.33 a quart OCI adjusted.

You know me and know I don't let anything sit a motor that long without crazy professional supervision just saying IF; it would cut cost over 50% over short OCI Wallmart $25 a jug whatever synthetic you like fluid.

Just thinking out loud James.

customboss · March 17, 2022

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I’m curious are you making this claim using synthetic oil. I don’t believe any modern turbo DI engine suggest using anything but synthetic. Just about every manufacturer with those engines suggest 5K miles oil changes under extreme conditions.

Read up on Grumpys links. Cummins Premium Blue RESTORE is what he used and is using to clean stuck rings safely. It’s a very advanced formula that is exotic in formulation. It’s ONLY available from Cummins or Cummins authorized suppliers. The term synthetic is marketing not science based anymore.
KARNUT I suggest you read Grumpys in-depth sharing and dissertations on this site for deeper dive and understanding.

KARNUT · March 17, 2022

7 hours ago, customboss said:

Read up on Grumpys links. Cummins Premium Blue RESTORE is what he used and is using to clean stuck rings safely. It’s a very advanced formula that is exotic in formulation. It’s ONLY available from Cummins or Cummins authorized suppliers. The term synthetic is marketing not science based anymore.
KARNUT I suggest you read Grumpys in-depth sharing and dissertations on this site for deeper dive and understanding.

I have. He has an engine with known problems. He said when he bought the car he asked if the engines problems were fixed. Of course the salesman said yes. That’s called puffing. He has stated he modified the engine later to try to fix the problem. He also stated it’s possible or probable he use the wrong oil early on. Saying synthetic oil is only good for 3K miles is misleading. And ridiculous. Perhaps that engine by design starts to wear out at around 80K miles and uses oil. I’ve seen other engines with similar problems.

Grumpy Bear · March 17, 2022

3 hours ago, KARNUT said:

Saying synthetic oil is only good for 3K miles is misleading. And ridiculous.

Perhaps that engine by design starts to wear out at around 80K miles and uses oil.

Don't get hopeful Stan. I was asked to look and reply. I'll start with the second first. The following pertains to the 2.4 and from my exchange with my tribologist. (I'm already regretting this)

[GM CCV system is a joke and marginal under any conditions other than optimum.

GM over optimistic by a factor of a bunch in OCI length for that CCV system.

GM under engineers the piston drain area. Specs too thin a ring. (would be fine with a proper PCV)

GM under engineers the cam phaser solenoids hinder EGR, hinders fuel/spark mapping. Stresses ignition.

GM maps the MIL/CEL parameters to keep you out of their hair.

Wife drives in the worst part of severe service for a street motor. A long trip is 25 miles.

This multitude eventually deposit off the CCV 1/16" vent accelerating oil decomp.

Result under engineered power cylinder rings collapse (varnish / shellac) OR/AND blow rear main seals AN/OR damage the power cylinder past service.]

The tribologist agreed with this assessment before starting the recovery program.

All mechanical and systems modifications made FIRST.

Unless ignored stuck rings don't 'wear out'. They collapse/stick in the ring land failing to seal and accelerate oil consumption.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2017/MC-10118904-9999.pdf

You will note in TSB GM uses the word 'wear'. And then tells the technician to install new rings and pistons in an UNHONED cylinder. So they are saying the rings which are much harder than the cylinder wore but the cylinder is fine.

Okay lets say for sake of argument that they wore out. That works in my favor.

WHY?

BECAUSE A WORN OUT SET OF RINGS WILL NOT RECOVER

Well it is recovering. We are currently at a usage rate of 4 ounces per 2,000 miles instead of a quart in 2,600 miles and all of that used in the first 1300 miles. Inside the engineering standards of academia.

Now lets get to that first statement. To qualify for an API starburst with an API designation the oil must pass a battery of test.

Among those test is the API Sequence IIIG for Average Weighted Piston Deposits. To qualify for the SN, SN+ and SP grades the oil must score a minimum of 4.0 on a scale of 10. Go to page 2 of the link below:

https://motoroil.biosynthetic.com/download/Motor_Oil_Data_Sheet.pdf

Note that even a CONVENTIONAL motor oil, on average, will pass this sequence. It is not a high bar. Yes most 'Synthetics' will have scores, on average, over 7 and that is great!! But here's the problem Stan; it is PROOF that even these synthetics do not prevent deposits no matter how robust their detergent package is BECAUSE???

These wonderful Group III-III+, IV FULLY SYNTHETIC oils are DRY OILS. They haven't any, or very limited SOLVENTCY.

All of this was fine BEFORE GDI when most of the issues were around sludge prevention which these oils are GREAT AT but no so much for removing or IHIBITIING the varnish deposits caused by FUELS dilution.

Esters, in almost any form, are great solvents and WILL remove and/or HINDER fuel shellac/varnish but they have to be a good portion of the bottle to be effective. ANs can also be effective solvents but give up some sludge protection.

That number has to be between 25% and 50%. Under 25% it is LESS ineffective. Over 50% there are seal issues to deal with.

CUMMINS RESTORE is/was a "Service Event' Oil with exceptional solvency that, over time, frees stuck rings. BUT as CUMMINS redesigned the power cylinder of the motor this oil was meant for, they no longer have the need nor the desire to continue it's production. Hence the limited supply.

So....IN THE CASE OF THE GM 2.4 even 5,000 miles with a DEXOS1Gen2 oil will not get it done without some HELP.

DONE and PROVED.

Thus the reason the breather was modified and ignition faults corrected. So Saying synthetic oil is only good for 3K miles is misleading. And ridiculous. ISN'T, in this case. It would also be foolish to not correct the things you know are wrong.

You like to make 'blanket statements' about things and people and that is the set of blinders you wear sir.

Now, back in the box with you.

KARNUT · March 17, 2022

9 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Don't get hopeful Stan. I was asked to look and reply. I'll start with the second first. The following pertains to the 2.4 and from my exchange with my tribologist. (I'm already regretting this)

[GM CCV system is a joke and marginal under any conditions other than optimum.

GM over optimistic by a factor of a bunch in OCI length for that CCV system.

GM under engineers the piston drain area. Specs too thin a ring. (would be fine with a proper PCV)

GM under engineers the cam phaser solenoids hinder EGR, hinders fuel/spark mapping. Stresses ignition.

GM maps the MIL/CEL parameters to keep you out of their hair.

Wife drives in the worst part of severe service for a street motor. A long trip is 25 miles.

This multitude eventually deposit off the CCV 1/16" vent accelerating oil decomp.

Result under engineered power cylinder rings collapse (varnish / shellac) OR/AND blow rear main seals AN/OR damage the power cylinder past service.]

The tribologist agreed with this assessment before starting the recovery program.

All mechanical and systems modifications made FIRST.

Unless ignored stuck rings don't 'wear out'. They collapse/stick in the ring land failing to seal and accelerate oil consumption.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2017/MC-10118904-9999.pdf

You will note in TSB GM uses the word 'wear'. And then tells the technician to install new rings and pistons in an UNHONED cylinder. So they are saying the rings which are much harder than the cylinder wore but the cylinder is fine.

Okay lets say for sake of argument that they wore out. That works in my favor.

WHY?

BECAUSE A WORN OUT SET OF RINGS WILL NOT RECOVER

Well it is recovering. We are currently at a usage rate of 4 ounces per 2,000 miles instead of a quart in 2,600 miles and all of that used in the first 1300 miles. Inside the engineering standards of academia.

Now lets get to that first statement. To qualify for an API starburst with an API designation the oil must pass a battery of test.

Among those test is the API Sequence IIIG for Average Weighted Piston Deposits. To qualify for the SN, SN+ and SP grades the oil must score a minimum of 4.0 on a scale of 10. Go to page 2 of the link below:

https://motoroil.biosynthetic.com/download/Motor_Oil_Data_Sheet.pdf

Note that even a CONVENTIONAL motor oil, on average, will pass this sequence. It is not a high bar. Yes most 'Synthetics' will have scores, on average, over 7 and that is great!! But here's the problem Stan; it is PROOF that even these synthetics do not prevent deposits no matter how robust their detergent package is BECAUSE???

These wonderful Group III-III+, IV FULLY SYNTHETIC oils are DRY OILS. They haven't any, or very limited SOLVENTCY.

All of this was fine BEFORE GDI when most of the issues were around sludge prevention which these oils are GREAT AT but no so much for removing or IHIBITIING the varnish deposits caused by FUELS dilution.

Esters, in almost any form, are great solvents and WILL remove and/or HINDER fuel shellac/varnish but they have to be a good portion of the bottle to be effective. ANs can also be effective solvents but give up some sludge protection.

That number has to be between 25% and 50%. Under 25% it is LESS ineffective. Over 50% there are seal issues to deal with.

CUMMINS RESTORE is/was a "Service Event' Oil with exceptional solvency that, over time, frees stuck rings. BUT as CUMMINS redesigned the power cylinder of the motor this oil was meant for, they no longer have the need nor the desire to continue it's production. Hence the limited supply.

So....IN THE CASE OF THE GM 2.4 even 5,000 miles with a DEXOS1Gen2 oil will not get it done without some HELP.

DONE and PROVED.

Thus the reason the breather was modified and ignition faults corrected. So Saying synthetic oil is only good for 3K miles is misleading. And ridiculous. ISN'T, in this case. It would also be foolish to not correct the things you know are wrong.

You like to make 'blanket statements' about things and people and that is the set of blinders you wear sir.

Now, back in the box with you.

. I have said one size doesn’t fit all. My Honda and Toyota extended. My Genesis just under 4K synthetic blend. My Avalanche one year between 5-7 Amsoil or GM oil depends on laziness, mine. I know people with your engine oil burners. They just add oil. My Acura doesn’t count 1000 miles a year once a year. I believe I just read your problem hasn’t been solved. Ok back in my box.