Law so we can diagnose, repair, scan our new trucks

[customboss]

NEW BILL SO WE CAN REPAIR OUR TRUCKS

[customboss]

This RIGHT TO REPAIR bill is geared towards farm equipment and dealers, OEM's controlling the programming and sensing but most likely will tie in with the posted above bill.  

 

RIGHT TO REPAIR

[newdude]

Is it bad that I'm torn on R-to-R?  Like, I'm for it to a point.  

 

I'm all for it if it gives access to independent shops or brand specific independent shops.  Farmers are a great example on this with the John Deere battle.  

 

I get that it could let Joe Blow fix his own car, but is Joe Blow gonna buy the tools, a laptop, an MDI and then pay to access any programming if necessary?  Probably not.  Some diehard car guy who does all his own work?  This would be great if it passed.  

 

[customboss]

I think you are being real about it.

 

I'm with you in independent shops being able to access MDI. Just being able to ID a sensor or scan without being locked out of the MDI MIL system would be great. 

 

I know at Cummins we were really torn on allowing access to HD repairs with the diagnostics which now are also telemetry in many cases.  

 

When I needed to diagnose a field issue I had to download the ECM history, now we can do it on the fly for a fleet or mining operation etc. But the local fleet or repair techs could not. 

[Grumpy Bear]

This is one of those things that seems almost too silly to even be true. When I BUY something I OWN it. I didn't buy only the right to drive it. I didn't buy the obligation that someone else fix it. I bough it and everything in the envelop. I'm not handing you a $5 bill for a ham sandwich that I can't eat.

 

Once the warranty is done...THEY don't even care and don't want it back. They just want out from under the warranty obligation. 

 

IF they don't want someone messing that up? Then build something that does not require more than routine maintenance the owner can do and instruct him...ya know....like when we got a manual that told us who to adjust valves. Now we get one that says 'Don't drink the acid in the battery". (diyer2, yea, your joke but....) 

 

This is like Missouri a few years back making it law that ALL TAXES collected for roads and bridges were to be used only for roads a bridges.  WHAT? You need a law to do what it right? WOW! 

 

Oh, and yes you do  Sad but true. 

 

Okay now....let it rain. 

[customboss]

I hear ya Grumpy Bear!   

 

IP  or intellectual property of the computer programming for vehicles was exempted somehow and OEM's own that software and associated sensor ID. 

 

Problem is if we can't access testing and sensor interface we can't properly fix or at least ID an issue now.  

 

For a farmer in the field with a bad sensor its costly, hopefully Sen Testor and Rep Rush get this passed and it helps all owners of modern transport. 

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, customboss said:

I hear ya Grumpy Bear!   

 

IP  or intellectual property of the computer programming for vehicles was exempted somehow and OEM's own that software and associated sensor ID. 

 

Problem is if we can't access testing and sensor interface we can't properly fix or at least ID an issue now.  

 

For a farmer in the field with a bad sensor its costly, hopefully Sen Testor and Rep Rush get this passed and it helps all owners of modern transport. 

 

A guys designs a product and patents the design. Then sells that product to customer me. I exchanged the product I owned for a consideration of value which transfers the ownership of everything that property is to me. He traded for it.

 

The patent prevents me from replicating that design in a manor that violates that patent for a term of 20 years (USA). What that patent does not prevent me from doing is burning it in my front yard (there may be another law forbidding that), taking it apart, repairing it, neglecting it.....yada yada yada. IP property is no different in concept to physical property. I can not replicate it but as the seller you should not be able to take the compensation AND keep that property you just willing SOLD regardless of where is is located. Under my hood or in your mind. to encrypt it to prevent me from access to my property is.....THEIF.   Or should be. 

 

Fact come to think of it, I can replicate patented property for my personal use and I can contract another to fabricate it. I just can not sell it or in anyway profit from it from a third party. 

 

Okay that is would' a , could' a  and should' a and it I put that with a nickel I'm still sort of buying a cup of coffee. Why? Because lobby money has created a universe where stealing is legal thus ethical. BUT....it is NOT moral. Monsanto was able to patent living organisms, GMO's and get away with it. Sue farmers for saving part of their own crop from another seed supplier as seed if that seed was 'by act of God' cross contaminated with their genetic manipulated DNA.  There are all sorts of things legal that are immoral. 

 

I did not sign a contract with GM that makes that purchase conditional nor forfeits my ownership of said property. 

 

NDA's are an end run around that very basic principle. I didn't sign one with the purchase of my vehicles. If I were asked to....no sale snail. 

 

And again yes. I understand I preach to the choir.  

[Black02Silverado]

I might be off base here but one thing with all new and upcoming vehicles is the connectivity to online.  I understand one should be able to do what they want with their vehicle. But the issue I see is that if everyone can access the computer systems on vehicles then what is stopping anyone from gaining access to the vehicle and taking over control.  I think that is the real problem. Manufactures would have to provide a "key"  to each and every vehicle so that you are the only one with that key to be able to repair it or provide it to a repair shop so that they can.  Otherwise there are individuals out there that just love to "hack" into anything just to have fun and if it was really easy all the more they would do it. 

 

I can see people locking the owner out of the car and then holding for ransom.  Kind of like they are doing now to computer systems. What a mess that would be. 

 

Again, I might be off base but that is how I see it.

[customboss]

19 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

I might be off base here but one thing with all new and upcoming vehicles is the connectivity to online.  I understand one should be able to do what they want with their vehicle. But the issue I see is that if everyone can access the computer systems on vehicles then what is stopping anyone from gaining access to the vehicle and taking over control.  I think that is the real problem. Manufactures would have to provide a "key"  to each and every vehicle so that you are the only one with that key to be able to repair it or provide it to a repair shop so that they can.  Otherwise there are individuals out there that just love to "hack" into anything just to have fun and if it was really easy all the more they would do it. 

 

I can see people locking the owner out of the car and then holding for ransom.  Kind of like they are doing now to computer systems. What a mess that would be. 

 

Again, I might be off base but that is how I see it.

Good point. There are tiers of control from my experience providing oil and fuels analysis data to ecm programmers at Cummins. There is a part of the ecm only Cummins can access. Cummins already has telemetry for all new power trains. 
Control of a car ECM TCM should be protected from outside while scanning and some tuning allowed. 

[customboss]

A bit dated but a part of the web of why OEMS locked us out. 
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-race-for-cybersecurity-protecting-the-connected-car-in-the-era-of-new-regulation

[pokismoki]

On 2/28/2022 at 9:21 AM, customboss said:

A bit dated but a part of the web of why OEMS locked us out. 
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-race-for-cybersecurity-protecting-the-connected-car-in-the-era-of-new-regulation

tell that to Anne Heche, 

most dangerous part of modern cars is the wireless throttle body..

 

 

if security is yur concern, I recommend desoldering the GPS antenna or disconnect it's wire, same goes for the 3,45G cell system in every car you buy

 

my friend has a new 2 series BMW, it's always parked under ground... so BMW cannot get over the air updates into the car.  so she goes to the market one day. gets groecries comes back to the car to head to work and she can't get into the car. BCM has been flashed over the GPS system. probably anti theft hack software update. so she sat in the parking lot for 2 hours trying to open the car, calling AAA, BMW . and finally a tech helped her get back in the car 3 hrs later with over the air re-boot

Edited October 1, 2022 by pokismoki

[customboss]

Wow!!!

[Grumpy Bear]

I was in on the ground floor of computer controlled systems. Literally from Honeywell air over air to Taylor electric over air through CHEVMON to IBM and Microsoft. Even manual control from valve handles through the control room walls. Nothing NEEDS to be this complicated and NOTHING needs constant updates to software to do it's base functionality. Only time this gets complicated is when big money gets the idea that they get to sell the cheese and eat the cheese and have the rats pay for it. 

[diyer2]

They are forcing you to use a dealer for some services. Deep pockets allows the hiring of lawyers to protect their cash flow. 

[RedLT]

With all the tech gadgets and software, I can see it being a dealer service only since the software is most likely proprietary.