Concerns with 6 speed transmission vs 10 speed transmission?

[KARNUT]

3 minutes ago, the wanderer said:

 

I don't think it's a given that 10 speed is naturally going to fail quicker than 6 speed just because it has more gears. Look at the ZF 8 speed, it's legendary and bullet proof, used in exotic sports cars, lots of Jeeps, the Ram's as well. We (us ram guys) all know it's far more reliable, and far more buttery smooth than anything FCA has ever put out.

 

So I think it's more about design, tuning, and manufacturing than simply "high gear count = worse reliability than low gear count".

 

Speaking of comfort, a 10 speed might mean you can cruise at 2200 RPMs instead of 2900 (or whatever). Basically, you have more ability to find that optimum RPM where it is making enough power but not revving higher than it needs to. That definitely adds comfort to your ride on long hauls.

You do realize the 10 speed skip shifts right? So ten speeds aren’t always used. Any long term ownership ( rarely me) usually has a transmission rebuild. The ten speed is probably going to hit close to an engine rebuild in cost. I haven’t checked. I will out of curiosity. I do believe the difference between the 4-6 speed is worth it. Not so much after. Most people like shiny new things. I believe the 2000-2006 GMs are the best. That’s where I’ll stay. 

[the wanderer]

14 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

You do realize the 10 speed skip shifts right? So ten speeds aren’t always used. Any long term ownership ( rarely me) usually has a transmission rebuild. The ten speed is probably going to hit close to an engine rebuild in cost. I haven’t checked. I will out of curiosity. I do believe the difference between the 4-6 speed is worth it. Not so much after. Most people like shiny new things. I believe the 2000-2006 GMs are the best. That’s where I’ll stay. 

 

 I didn't realize that no, my 8 speed doesn't. But it doesn't matter, because that's even better; the gears are available when needed, but doesn't waste time up shifting every 200 rpms if it doesn't need to.

 

Here is something interesting that highlights what I'm saying (apologies for the non gm content, it's just two trucks I'm familiar with but I'm sure it would be a very similar story going from GM 6 speed to GM 10 speed)

 

The Ram 3.21 with zf 8 speed has a starting gear ratio of 16.05

The 4.30 Tundra with 6 speed has a starting gear ratio of 14.33

Ram 3.21 final gear ratio is 2.05

Tundra final gear ratio is 2.52

 

That's incredible for the Ram/3.21. Not only does it have a deeper first gear off the line, it also has a taller final gear for better fuel efficiency. And, it has more gears to choose from while towing.

 

In other words, those 2 extra gears allows the highway tuned Ram to pull better, and get better fuel efficiency than the Tundra. The same ram with the 3.92 gears has even stronger first gear, while STILL managing to outdo the 4.30 tundra in 8th (3.92 final gear is 2.50)

 

So if GM does it right, I'm sure the difference from the GM 6 speed to GM 8 speed would be even stronger than my example above.

 

If you keep your truck forever then I can see the concern about rebuilding cost, but at that point what's an additional $2000? Most of us trade up long before then so it's not a concern at all. By the time the 10 speed comes out, and then add additional years of use, well at that point gas trucks won't even be viable, we'll be all pushing batteries

Edited January 17, 2022 by the wanderer

[KARNUT]

10 minutes ago, the wanderer said:

 

 I didn't realize that no, my 8 speed doesn't. But it doesn't matter, because that's even better; the gears are available when needed, but doesn't waste time up shifting every 200 rpms if it doesn't need to.

 

Here is something interesting that highlights what I'm saying (apologies for the non gm content, it's just two trucks I'm familiar with but I'm sure it would be a very similar story going from GM 6 speed to GM 10 speed)

 

The Ram 3.21 with zf 8 speed has a starting gear ratio of 16.05

The 4.30 Tundra with 6 speed has a starting gear ratio of 14.33

Ram 3.21 final gear ratio is 2.05

Tundra final gear ratio is 2.52

 

That's incredible for the Ram/3.21. Not only does it have a deeper first gear off the line, it also has a taller final gear for better fuel efficiency. And, it has more gears to choose from while towing.

 

In other words, those 2 extra gears allows the highway tuned Ram to pull better, and get better fuel efficiency than the Tundra. The same ram with the 3.92 gears has even stronger first gear, while STILL managing to outdo the 4.30 tundra in 8th (3.92 final gear is 2.50)

 

So if GM does it right, I'm sure the difference from the GM 6 speed to GM 8 speed would be even stronger than my example above.

 

If you keep your truck forever then I can see the concern about rebuilding cost, but at that point what's an additional $2000? Most of us trade up long before then so it's not a concern at all. By the time the 10 speed comes out, and then add additional years of use, well at that point gas trucks won't even be viable, we'll be all pushing batteries

I always bought the cutting edge. GM pissed me off when the eliminated the rear drive full size car. Then cylinder deactivation. So I’m throwing a temper tantrum with the 10 speed. A product of my age I’m sure. It happens to us all.

[the wanderer]

15 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I always bought the cutting edge. GM pissed me off when the eliminated the rear drive full size car. Then cylinder deactivation. So I’m throwing a temper tantrum with the 10 speed. A product of my age I’m sure. It happens to us all.

 

Fair enough! I've thrown my share of tantrums.

[topdj]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:56 AM, mrjulian416 said:

 

Go to 3:28 in this video.  The lead engineer explains the changes.  Basically they added one set of clutch and backing plates, and the torque converter is a "new design" using existing components.  I read somewhere that the converter is slightly stronger/higher capacity than the '19/earlier design.  All other stuff is the same.

 

GM 6 Speed Engineer explains

 

I was hoping they built it like these performance tranny shops did. Hi end torque converter and more plates. Bigger trans cooler.  But I still have not got detailed information from anyone.

[sheath]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:02 AM, topdj said:

I was hoping they built it like these performance tranny shops did. Hi end torque converter and more plates. Bigger trans cooler.  But I still have not got detailed information from anyone.

Who all have you asked?

[sheath]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:07 PM, sheath said:

Light, inexpensive and bullet proof make the 6 speed hard to pass up.  

Rather keep the price of the truck lower, and the weight down.

 

 

Can I change my mind to a slightly possible maybe interest?

 

After pulling a 14,300 lbs 5th wheel travel trailer through some short to medium length 6% grades (up and down hill), I'd be interested to see if they could get the electronics right to make the 10 speed a good option.

Having an added gear spaced between 1st and second could be helpful.  Also some good tuning so that the transmission didn't automatically drop down so many gears that the rpms jump up over 5K on a medium heavy uphill pull would be nice.  Although I'm not sold that this couldn't be fixed with the current transmission, and more use of the manual shift mode.

So while I'm still leaning heavily towards keeping the current transmission, a case could be made for a 10 speed option.

[sheath]

I'm coming around to the opinion that an 8 or 10 speed could be a good thing if offered as an Option, with the 6 speed as standard configuration.

Just finished some really good mountain climbs.  Some really slow, steep narrow winding climbs, and some really steep long grades (up over 8,000' elevation). All this pulling a wide body 5th wheel travel trailer that scales at 14,600 lbs currently. 

On slow steep climbs in that 15-30 mph heavy load range, the 6 speed works well, although I'd like a torque converter lock up clutch strong enough to lock the converter in L2 to help with transmission temperature.  Max trans temp stopped climbing at 232*F, and that's OK, but I'd like to see it down around 210-ish*F.  Just for confidence, and longevity.

The steep long grades under heavy load is where an extra gear would help between L3 & L4, in my personal opinion.  I've become a big fan of the L8T in that 3,500-4,200 rpm range.  But the downshift from L4-L3 at a towing speed of 55mph to 60 drops the rpms below 3,500 rpms, and speed/rpms drops quickly under heavy load with rpms below 3,500rpm. 

(would love to see a dyno pull on the L8T/6L90E combo).

So, I don't think I'd "need" a 10 speed, but maybe an 8 speed.  Whichever of the two is most efficient, and cost effective.  In the meantime I've figured out how to maintain a heavy load pull in my favorite rpm range by adjusting speed.

I think most people tow faster than I do.  Towing faster with heavy loads may benefit from a 10 speed, if Chevy will allow "gear lock" function, instead of their current "we know better than you" programming strategy.  

Just my thoughts.

Happy towing!

[RyanCawdor]

Thanks for the great towing feedback!!  What gear were you able to maintain on flat ground pulling your 5er?  What is your cruising speed on flat ground?  Thanks in advance!!

[sheath]

2 hours ago, RyanCawdor said:

Thanks for the great towing feedback!!  What gear were you able to maintain on flat ground pulling your 5er?  What is your cruising speed on flat ground?  Thanks in advance!!

On flat ground it will tow in 6th with lockup.  Tow speed in California was 55 mph on cruise (max speed allowed).  In other states, the towing speed is usually 62 mph where allowed.  That is usually a few miles an hour under the trucking speeds, so I can relax on cruise,and let the world pass me by... lol

 

[Parapowered]

The last time I owned a truck it was also my first ride, a 1976 Chevy 4X4, half ton step side with the 400V8 and if you could imagine...a TH400 3spd! 

Almost 50 years later I am about to make what is most likely my last new vehicle purchase in my life  (I've had my current car 21yrs), so I find it fitting to go out with a 3500HD gas in AT4 trim. I welcome the refresh, but the 10spd......is it as reliable as the 6spd? From what I have read the 6 is bullet proof.  However,  the Diesel group has made rumblings about issues with the 10, my question is are the gas and diesel 10spd's the SAME transmission? 

[XY74]

I only own 1 truck, but the 10 spd has been flawless in mine.  Haven't heard anything about widespread trouble.  

[Doodle]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:59 AM, Parapowered said:

The last time I owned a truck it was also my first ride, a 1976 Chevy 4X4, half ton step side with the 400V8 and if you could imagine...a TH400 3spd! 

Almost 50 years later I am about to make what is most likely my last new vehicle purchase in my life  (I've had my current car 21yrs), so I find it fitting to go out with a 3500HD gas in AT4 trim. I welcome the refresh, but the 10spd......is it as reliable as the 6spd? From what I have read the 6 is bullet proof.  However,  the Diesel group has made rumblings about issues with the 10, my question is are the gas and diesel 10spd's the SAME transmission? 

Yes the gas and diesel are the same transmission, I can't comment though about the internals of the the diesel transmission (maybe beefed up a bit to handle greater torque?)  So if they put this transmission behind something with almost 1000 lb/ft of torque I don't think it's gonna mind the 464 the gas puts down.  Should be no issues with reliability only concern would be how they tune the shift points from the factory.  

 

I wanted to wait for a refresh but had to put something in service last year so got a 2023 with the 6 speed.  It does fine but I think the 10 speed will be improved.  Honestly I will likely trade my 23 off for a 24 when they start showing up.  I think the only issue with the 10 speed will be heavy towing.  It will be interesting to see how it performs with loads close to 26k GCW (which they are rated for).  I've pulled that weight with my 23 and it did allright but there is a flat spot in the power band between 3rd to 4th and once it shifts into 5th it has enough momentum to keep going.  I think a few more gears will help that transition between 30-45 mph towing heavy.  Unloaded I think the 10 speed will really wake it up.  Will it be night and day, not likely but it should be improved.   

[Another JR]

Longevity of the gear sets and bearings, and at least some aspects of torque converter behavior, may be related to the amount of horsepower or torque through the transmission, but control system related issues - which seem to be involved in quite a few of the threads in the troubleshooting and diesel forums, may not be related to torque or power at all.  
 

I’m not suggesting any conclusions - I’m just suggesting how the available information should be considered. 

[Epsilon Plus]

The biggest concern with the 10-speed will be the overall price. New owners will love the truck. For us 20-23 guys, you have to look at the monstrous price increases like someone offered to put bigger screens in your interior and a new trans for $5,000+ Would you say, "Sure! Great deal!" or keep driving the truck that's been doing just fine for you. I got my convivence package Z71 LT with a 51.5k MSRP for 48.9k right in the heart of the shortage (Nov 21). I don't see a fancy screen 10-speed LT leaving the dealer for that for a long time if ever. Dealer I bought mine from has a same optioned truck to mine but 23 coming in and the MSRP is $6,025 more. That's without the screens and 10-speed that's getting another increase for '24. Prayers for the new truck buyers out there.