6.6 Direct Injection Reliability Concerns

Grumpy Bear · April 6, 2023

6 hours ago, Dr1ft3r said:

If adding anything to the fuel has zero effect on carbon deposits, or any other type of deposit, then why would using top tier fuels as instructed by GM matter either? The only difference between top tier fuel and fuel not rated as top tier are the detergents used in the fuel.

Fuel additives not only clean valve backsides in SPFI or carburetor motors but help keep the carbon neutral balance in the combustion chamber of al SI motors. The injector now in the combustion chamber benefits the maintenance of spray pattern and deposit formation behind the nozzle needle. Lots of small cavities need gum protection.

6 hours ago, Dr1ft3r said:

Also, it is my understanding that changing the oil sooner has a positive effect on deposits accumulating in your engine.

It does. Something many miss or misunderstand is the life of an oil. The OEM's have an 'acceptable' level of deposit formation permitted. The tests used by the API, ILSAC and the DEXOS license programs for certification state this right in the tests. It is considered through field testing that the OCI length in your manual using the recommended oil under 'normal' conditions will not exceed that 'acceptable' limit for the 'life expectancy' of the motor. Roughly 150K miles. See all the quotes in that paragraph? Legal hogwash.

1.) Few motors see what the OEM would call "Normal" operational conditions.

2.) Recommended oil weight is based on government poly-ticks and EPA requirements.

3.) Recommended oil grade, SP and so on is based on warranty and EPA requirements.

4.) None of the above prevent deposit formation. It does slow it to the point where warranty claims and lawsuits are economically viable to the OEM.

If you expect a better result you need to employ a better practice. Even GM knows this when they do things like roll back the OCI length by reprogramming the OLM and call it a TSB or Recall, like they did for the Ecotec I-4 motors. After being sued silly they didn't fix the ring issue, they shortened the OCI.

How short is short enough? As short as it takes to get the result you want. Sadly, you won't know until after the damage is done or the money wasted, ......the first time anyway.

Pryme · April 6, 2023

7 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Fuel additives not only clean valve backsides in SPFI or carburetor motors but help keep the carbon neutral balance in the combustion chamber of al SI motors. The injector now in the combustion chamber benefits the maintenance of spray pattern and deposit formation behind the nozzle needle. Lots of small cavities need gum protection.

It does. Something many miss or misunderstand is the life of an oil. The OEM's have an 'acceptable' level of deposit formation permitted. The tests used by the API, ILSAC and the DEXOS license programs for certification state this right in the tests. It is considered through field testing that the OCI length in your manual using the recommended oil under 'normal' conditions will not exceed that 'acceptable' limit for the 'life expectancy' of the motor. Roughly 150K miles. See all the quotes in that paragraph? Legal hogwash.

1.) Few motors see what the OEM would call "Normal" operational conditions.

2.) Recommended oil weight is based on government poly-ticks and EPA requirements.

3.) Recommended oil grade, SP and so on is based on warranty and EPA requirements.

4.) None of the above prevent deposit formation. It does slow it to the point where warranty claims and lawsuits are economically viable to the OEM.

If you expect a better result you need to employ a better practice. Even GM knows this when they do things like roll back the OCI length by reprogramming the OLM and call it a TSB or Recall, like they did for the Ecotec I-4 motors. After being sued silly they didn't fix the ring issue, they shortened the OCI.

How short is short enough? As short as it takes to get the result you want. Sadly, you won't know until after the damage is done or the money wasted, ......the first time anyway.

It’s unlikely I’ll go over 4k miles on oil in my truck just due to the lower miles I’ll drive it. Hopefully that will help a bit.

my short trips and cold climate already puts me in severe use. So that’s another reason I won’t go too long.

Jettech1 · April 6, 2023

3 hours ago, Pryme said:

It’s unlikely I’ll go over 4k miles on oil in my truck just due to the lower miles I’ll drive it. Hopefully that will help a bit.

my short trips and cold climate already puts me in severe use. So that’s another reason I won’t go too long.

I do 5k mile oil changes but I live in a mild climate. I get why you do 4k. I would too!!

Pryme · April 6, 2023

18 minutes ago, Jettech1 said:

I do 5k mile oil changes but I live in a mild climate. I get why you do 4k. I would too!!

My last truck we owned for five years and put 25k on it so avg only 5k a year. This one will be similar. So it will take awhile to put even 4k on it.

Jettech1 · April 6, 2023

3 minutes ago, Pryme said:

My last truck we owned for five years and put 25k on it so avg only 5k a year. This one will be similar. So it will take awhile to put even 4k on it.

Mine is coming up on 7k. I've owned it since 8/31 so not too bad. I can't wait to do some camper towing with it again.

Pryme · April 6, 2023

19 minutes ago, Jettech1 said:

Mine is coming up on 7k. I've owned it since 8/31 so not too bad. I can't wait to do some camper towing with it again.

Mine since 8/29 ha. 4,450 but did about 800mi last mo in one trip so that added a bit extra

Edited April 6, 2023 by Pryme

Jettech1 · April 6, 2023

4 minutes ago, Pryme said:

Mine since 8/29 ha. 4,450 but did about 800mi last mo in one trip so that added a bit extra

I wanted to pick mine up the following weekend but if I did I would lose out on the 2.99 60 month GM financing. So off I went lol...

Jettech1 · April 6, 2023

4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Fuel additives not only clean valve backsides in SPFI or carburetor motors but help keep the carbon neutral balance in the combustion chamber of al SI motors. The injector now in the combustion chamber benefits the maintenance of spray pattern and deposit formation behind the nozzle needle. Lots of small cavities need gum protection.

It does. Something many miss or misunderstand is the life of an oil. The OEM's have an 'acceptable' level of deposit formation permitted. The tests used by the API, ILSAC and the DEXOS license programs for certification state this right in the tests. It is considered through field testing that the OCI length in your manual using the recommended oil under 'normal' conditions will not exceed that 'acceptable' limit for the 'life expectancy' of the motor. Roughly 150K miles. See all the quotes in that paragraph? Legal hogwash.

1.) Few motors see what the OEM would call "Normal" operational conditions.

2.) Recommended oil weight is based on government poly-ticks and EPA requirements.

3.) Recommended oil grade, SP and so on is based on warranty and EPA requirements.

4.) None of the above prevent deposit formation. It does slow it to the point where warranty claims and lawsuits are economically viable to the OEM.

If you expect a better result you need to employ a better practice. Even GM knows this when they do things like roll back the OCI length by reprogramming the OLM and call it a TSB or Recall, like they did for the Ecotec I-4 motors. After being sued silly they didn't fix the ring issue, they shortened the OCI.

How short is short enough? As short as it takes to get the result you want. Sadly, you won't know until after the damage is done or the money wasted, ......the first time anyway.

I had a 2021 Ford Escape that was both DI and Port injected. I get the reasons for going DI, I just don't understand the reason to eliminate PI too. Cost I'm sure is the final answer, but the best of both worlds is out there. I would hope at least one engineer on the program said hey, let's do both...and then the bean counters said, nope. Too costly. But this "costly" tech was on my cheap ass Ford Escape. I get doing both is going to cost more, but at the end of the day, it would've made the engine not have deposit problems at all...but who am I. I never did get a call from GM asking for my opinion....lol...

Grumpy Bear · April 6, 2023

23 minutes ago, Jettech1 said:

I never did get a call from GM asking for my opinion....lol...

Me either Dale.

Dr1ft3r · April 7, 2023

15 hours ago, Pryme said:

It’s unlikely I’ll go over 4k miles on oil in my truck just due to the lower miles I’ll drive it. Hopefully that will help a bit.

my short trips and cold climate already puts me in severe use. So that’s another reason I won’t go too long.

I usually do half of what the manufacturer recommends. Some of my vehicles in the past have had a manufacturer recommended synthetic oil with a change interval of 10,000 miles. I still changed it every 5,000.

4,000 miles is what I planned for my truck. I did the first change at 2,500 and my next change will be at 6,500 (next week). I do short and long trips in warm and cold climates. But I spend most of my time in the northern US, lately.

Direct injection engines just require a little more maintenance if a person wants longevity out of their engine. But if properly maintained there is no reason to not expect it to last for a long time. If you want to get the valves cleaned every 100,000 miles, then do it. The cost to clean the valves is about the same as replacing 1 tire. If that's only done every 100,000 miles then I don't consider that to be a great expense or inconvenience. I don't expect to need to have that done sooner than that, if it even needs it then.

There are Lexus IS-F vehicles out there with over 300,000 miles on them. Granted, they are both port and direct injection engines, but they are direct injection engines. Those are cars that are usually ran hard too, since they are sport oriented V8 cars that put out over 400 hp stock. Keep your valves clean, if needed, and who knows how many miles you can get?

Here's a IS-F with over 400k:
New high mile record. 423k mile ISF - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

the wanderer · April 7, 2023

22 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

It does. Something many miss or misunderstand is the life of an oil. The OEM's have an 'acceptable' level of deposit formation permitted. The tests used by the API, ILSAC and the DEXOS license programs for certification state this right in the tests. It is considered through field testing that the OCI length in your manual using the recommended oil under 'normal' conditions will not exceed that 'acceptable' limit for the 'life expectancy' of the motor. Roughly 150K miles. See all the quotes in that paragraph? Legal hogwash.

1.) Few motors see what the OEM would call "Normal" operational conditions.

2.) Recommended oil weight is based on government poly-ticks and EPA requirements.

3.) Recommended oil grade, SP and so on is based on warranty and EPA requirements.

4.) None of the above prevent deposit formation. It does slow it to the point where warranty claims and lawsuits are economically viable to the OEM.

If you expect a better result you need to employ a better practice. Even GM knows this when they do things like roll back the OCI length by reprogramming the OLM and call it a TSB or Recall, like they did for the Ecotec I-4 motors. After being sued silly they didn't fix the ring issue, they shortened the OCI.

How short is short enough? As short as it takes to get the result you want. Sadly, you won't know until after the damage is done or the money wasted, ......the first time anyway.

Quote of the week right there! It's one reason I love HPL's oil so much, the cleaning ability of it is phenomenal.

It's so powerful at cleaning that they don't recommend you use it instantly in a higher mileage engine, instead they recommend their oil cleaning additive which is less powerful but has less danger of breaking off larger crud which may get stuck in places it shouldn't.

Grumpy Bear · April 7, 2023

8 hours ago, Dr1ft3r said:

Here's a IS-F with over 400k:
New high mile record. 423k mile ISF - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

Durable indeed!

1 hour ago, the wanderer said:

Quote of the week right there! It's one reason I love HPL's oil so much, the cleaning ability of it is phenomenal.

It's so powerful at cleaning that they don't recommend you use it instantly in a higher mileage engine, instead they recommend their oil cleaning additive which is less powerful but has less danger of breaking off larger crud which may get stuck in places it shouldn't.

Currently running HPL SAE 40-EC in one of my high milers that has had its share of issues. It had been chemically cleaned with KREEN twice before I heard about HPL so I wasn't expecting the rush of black crud, but I did do a 500-mile filter change to gain a reference point. Not black at all. In fact, the end of cycle filter was also not black. They were both amber. The color of varnish. The first very much so and the second not as intense. Now 1K into the second cycle and the amber color is now faint and oil much cleaner compared to what I've been seeing at 1K for years. This motor uses to much oil to make their oils useable in a cost-effective manor but I can keep using the 5:1 ratio and make that work.

More importantly, this vehicle was my test mule. Anyone that has spent five minutes on this site knows I'm a diehard Red Line HP PCMO user and have been for decades. That MAY be changing

the wanderer · April 7, 2023

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Durable indeed!

Currently running HPL SAE 40-EC in one of my high milers that has had its share of issues. It had been chemically cleaned with KREEN twice before I heard about HPL so I wasn't expecting the rush of black crud, but I did do a 500-mile filter change to gain a reference point. Not black at all. In fact, the end of cycle filter was also not black. They were both amber. The color of varnish. The first very much so and the second not as intense. Now 1K into the second cycle and the amber color is now faint and oil much cleaner compared to what I've been seeing at 1K for years. This motor uses to much oil to make their oils useable in a cost-effective manor but I can keep using the 5:1 ratio and make that work.

More importantly, this vehicle was my test mule. Anyone that has spent five minutes on this site knows I'm a diehard Red Line HP PCMO user and have been for decades. That MAY be changing

This thread on bitog is very enlightening. I know you and a few other gurus on this forum don't like bitog but the results he got from HPL speak for themselves IMHO. Curious what you think about this:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/amsoil-eao11-2019-ram-1500-5-7l-11-144km.364312/

the wanderer · April 7, 2023

Also, you may already be aware but RL is changing their formula; the 0w-30 has definitely been changed, not sure about 5w-30. They haven't updated their site yet but they're just waiting for the old stock to run out/low before doing that. I no longer trust RL either.

Edited April 7, 2023 by the wanderer