Afm problem

[beetle]

Let's not re-invent the wheel here. I would like to see documented iron clad proof ( not hear say or "I read it on the internet somewhere") of a case about an oil related engine failure caused by brands x, y or Z. Does not include never changing it or allowing it to run too low. I'll be waiting.................

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

24 minutes ago, TXGREEK said:

Rather than saying non helpful things, Listen and learn something, Oil is the #1 contributor to AFM failure hence the reason for bringing up high quality products that help stop the chance of AFM problems.


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17 minutes ago, Ryan2017Z71 said:

So using Amsoil will prevent AFM failure, got it. Can this be put in writing from Amsoil?  If so I am sure their sales would increase drastically. 

Little story Ryan and it will tell you why no oil supplier will "put in writing" 

 

I bought a 1998 Honda Civic HX new. Serviced it with Red Line products the entire time. I $0 into break down maintenance during the 200,000 miles I owned it. At 100K and at 200 K it got that intervals full service like replacing the timing belts, idler and water pump per the book and at 200K a new clutch. I also had the shop do a leak down test which even at 200K was under 5%. Not a misprint. 

 

I sold that car to my neighbors son on his 16th birthday. A boy I knew from birth. By 205K miles he'd burned up the clutch drifting in parking lots and at 207K blew the cam seals out holding it 500 over redline, clutch half in, doing the exact same thing and besides pumping all the oil out in about 30 seconds he broke a valve spring. 

 

He happened to be 16 but this is the behavior of people three times his age.

 

Get it writing?

 

Also note the high lighted part or TXGREEKS reply?

Mean more that one, right?

[Grumpy Bear]

14 minutes ago, beetle said:

Let's not re-invent the wheel here. I would like to see documented iron clad proof ( not hear say or "I read it on the internet somewhere") of a case about an oil related engine failure caused by brands x, y or Z. Does not include never changing it or allowing it to run too low. I'll be waiting.................

 

 

Here's two served up on a platter. 

 

1.) 1993 Toyota Paseo. Ring collapse at 100 K Pennzoil Synthetic on 7.5K OCI's WIX filters Quart per tank of fuel

2.) 2015 GMC Terrain 50K Cam phaser screens plugged. 70K Ring collapse QSUD Synthetic on 7.5 K OCI's WIX filters.

Loss of compression, high oil consumption, vent plugging. Rocker cover full. Shall I continue? 

 

Both of these vehicles were driven by my wife. She's not Danica Patrick. 

 

Varnish/gum/coking is an oil related failure. Especially oils with the DEXOS license that are formulated to not do this within the 'book' OCI range. It is these failures that PAO/POE oils resist better than those you buy at the big box

 

There's your documented iron clad proof.  

 

 

 

 

[TXGREEK]

Little story Ryan and it will tell you why no oil supplier will "put in writing" 
 
I bought a 1998 Honda Civic HX new. Serviced it with Red Line products the entire time. I $0 into break down maintenance during the 200,000 miles I owned it. At 100K and at 200 K it got that intervals full service like replacing the timing belts, idler and water pump per the book and at 200K a new clutch. I also had the shop do a leak down test which even at 200K was under 5%. Not a misprint. 
 
I sold that car to my neighbors son on his 16th birthday. A boy I knew from birth. By 205K miles he'd burned up the clutch drifting in parking lots and at 207K blew the cam seals out holding it 500 over redline, clutch half in, doing the exact same thing and besides pumping all the oil out in about 30 seconds he broke a valve spring. 
 
He happened to be 16 but this is the behavior of people three times his age.
 

Get it writing?

 

Also note the high lighted part or TXGREEKS reply?

Mean more that one, right?

That’s correct. It’s like my high dollar lift, yes you can buy cheaper lifts just to get you to a certain height but the quality is obviously far superior to the cheaper ones and yet, though I’ve got a super high quality lift, it still has the same warranty as the cheaper ones do.

I do believe Amsoil does have some sort of warranty on their site, Best would be to call them and print out but I believe you’d have to have been using it for a long time already to have any type of coverage. As it’s no surprise of the amount of cheap asses in the world and in forums always trying to get something for nothing, it wouldn’t be surprising to have someone start using Amsoil in their already neglected vehicle. I’ve been using Amsoil since purchase, all documentation as well as Amsoil membership has a complete purchase history too. For any further questions, I’d ask black02silverado, he’s the authorized Amsoil Guru in the forums.


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[TXGREEK]

Let's not re-invent the wheel here. I would like to see documented iron clad proof ( not hear say or "I read it on the internet somewhere") of a case about an oil related engine failure caused by brands x, y or Z. Does not include never changing it or allowing it to run too low. I'll be waiting.................
 
 

Proof is in the pudding, no place better to find someone bitching about their engine failures than in a forum, only vehicles using oils with minimum requirements have proven failures, non with using Amsoil.

Many have already posted on these sites that they too have noticed their engines running smoother (I along with them) just by switching to Amsoil.

If this site had a dollar for every time someone said “show me proof” that Amsoil is better or that cheap oil is the cause, we’d all be receiving gifts just for joining or putting up with ridiculous questions focusing on answering questions from individuals determined to keep doing that which is minimally required in order to keep their vehicles running through the warranty period.

People that want more do their own research and ask others with product experiences and then you’ve got people searching to get a pat on their back for doing what’s minimally required ask for proof no matter personal experiences from actual product users, these are considered to be Trolls.

Search and you will find, it’s waiting for ya [emoji6]


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[TXGREEK]

Little story Ryan and it will tell you why no oil supplier will "put in writing" 
 
I bought a 1998 Honda Civic HX new. Serviced it with Red Line products the entire time. I $0 into break down maintenance during the 200,000 miles I owned it. At 100K and at 200 K it got that intervals full service like replacing the timing belts, idler and water pump per the book and at 200K a new clutch. I also had the shop do a leak down test which even at 200K was under 5%. Not a misprint. 
 
I sold that car to my neighbors son on his 16th birthday. A boy I knew from birth. By 205K miles he'd burned up the clutch drifting in parking lots and at 207K blew the cam seals out holding it 500 over redline, clutch half in, doing the exact same thing and besides pumping all the oil out in about 30 seconds he broke a valve spring. 
 
He happened to be 16 but this is the behavior of people three times his age.
 

Get it writing?

 

Also note the high lighted part or TXGREEKS reply?

Mean more that one, right?

Now, as if someone’s life experiences aren’t enough, I’m just waiting for someone to say “prove it” LMAO!


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[mookdoc6]

DEXOS license that are formulated to not do this within the 'book' OCI range.

 

I would say: more apt at not doing this/less likely within the 'book" OCI.  It's really a spec that lowers the possibility greatly compared to non DEXOS.

Edited October 9, 2020 by mookdoc6

[Ryan2017Z71]

I am not saying Amsoil isn’t a higher quality product but everyone pushing Amsoil is saying that this will prevent AFM failure and I say that is not the case. 
 

In 1992 I bought a 1986 Honda Accord 5 speed for college. When I bought it, it had about 80k miles on it. When I sold it in 6 years later it had 235k and I was very very hard on the car. Oil used was Texaco Havoline with a Fram oil filter changed every 3,000 miles. No mechanical issues with the car, ever. I changed the timing belt when required and had to change the clutch once. 
 

the OP is frustrated by AFM failure which is caused by a poor design that is there only to increase fuel efficiency. The only way to confidently not have AFM failure is to remove that feature. 

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, mookdoc6 said:

DEXOS license that are formulated to not do this within the 'book' OCI range.

 

I would say: more apt at not doing this/less likely within the 'book" OCI.  It's really a spec that lowers the possibility greatly compared to non DEXOS.

I will buy that IF the point of reference is non-DEXOS but wait for it....ready? (look below)

52 minutes ago, Ryan2017Z71 said:

I am not saying Amsoil isn’t a higher quality product but everyone pushing Amsoil is saying that this will prevent AFM failure and I say that is not the case. 
 

In 1992 I bought a 1986 Honda Accord 5 speed for college. When I bought it, it had about 80k miles on it. When I sold it in 6 years later it had 235k and I was very very hard on the car. Oil used was Texaco Havoline with a Fram oil filter changed every 3,000 miles. No mechanical issues with the car, ever. I changed the timing belt when required and had to change the clutch once. 
 

the OP is frustrated by AFM failure which is caused by a poor design that is there only to increase fuel efficiency. The only way to confidently not have AFM failure is to remove that feature. 

About half the current motors "Book" OCI? And there we have it....once again. If you change it every 50 miles you could use baby oil. I'll get to that later. 

 

 

I posted this link a few pages back. The supplier of the AFM parts. NOT a design issue sir. 

It's an oil issue. Choice/OCI/filtration. 

Occasionally a QC issue, materials/workmanship.

 

https://www.melling.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Melling-tech-bulletin-on-GM-LS-Deactivation-Lifter-Issues-3.1.18-1.pdf

 

 

I am not pro-AMSOIL. I am PRO-PAO/POE which includes oils 'like' AMSOIL SS....and Red Line HP....and MPT30K...and SynLube. (I've never used the last two. DYSON has recommended MPT30K to me personally for AFM/DOD however). 

 

Oil breaks down with time and temperature. ALL of them do but they all do it at different rates and different temperatures. The lower its resistance to this eventuality the more often it needs to be replaced to prevent that from becoming deposited inside the motor.

 

As they do the dispersant is consumed and the TBN falls and the TAN rises. Some oils already have a naturally high TAN. 

 

A >1 TBN does NOT ASSURE otherwise. IF the acid number is higher than the base number...these suspended breakdown byproducts WILL collect inside your motor and you UAO will never show it. Almost no one test both base and acid. They may collect anyway in places IF the LOCAL temperature is high enough. 

 

This crap not only plugs the screens and filters that 'protect' critical parts but they will also plug oil passages and starve components of the critical minimum film thickness. OIL FILM FAILURES are more times than not caused this way.

 

Even GM has been aware of this for years....

 

 https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-shortens-oil-change-interval-warnings-for-779000-vehicles-352839/

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, Ryan2017Z71 said:

 The only way to confidently not have AFM failure is to remove that feature. 

And the only way not to experience an automobile accident is to never get on the road. Yes...that will work. Now tell me how you defeat the failures of cam chains and roller lifter check valves or broken valve springs or.......

 

 

I have a 2005 HD Electra sitting in the garage that has lived on a steady diet of Red Line HP 10W40 since I bought it new. A short while ago we cracked open the cam chest for a routine replacement, according to Harley Davidson, of the cam chain tensioner shoes and chains. To do this job without cutting pushrods the head must be removed. I handed this shop a blank check and told them to formally inspect and measure every component they touched and any part not within the top 10% of the 'normal' spec was to be replaced without contacting me. IF a majority of the parts were in need then they has permission to do the entire motor. Normally these shoes wear out in roughly 30 to 35 thousand miles and need to be caught before getting to the base metal which totals the motor. In addition these motors require 20W50. 

 

I got called about a day later to come to the shop for a look inside and the inspection report to be explained. Not only were the shoes over 90% yet there was no measurable wear on any component! The cam chains would pass inspection for new. In fact the cam lobes didn't have a track in them yet. There was ZERO...ZERO deposits in this motor. Not a hint of yellow or bronzing anywhere to be seen. I took it to the shop at 48K miles. This motor looks inside like a new motor freshly assembled.

 

They had several others in there for the same service that had all their services done in house and using Screaming Eagle 20W50 per the 'book'. One headed to the scrap bin and the other two....they were scrapping deposits and replacing parts in the cam chest. ALL Of them.  

 

I think the oil had something to do with this. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Grumpy Bear

[Black02Silverado]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

And the only way not to experience an automobile accident is to never get on the road. Yes...that will work. Now tell me how you defeat the failures of cam chains and roller lifter check valves or broken valve springs or.......

 

 

I have a 2005 HD Electra sitting in the garage that has lived on a steady diet of Red Line HP 10W40 since I bought it new. A short while ago we cracked open the cam chest for a routine replacement, according to Harley Davidson, of the cam chain tensioner shoes and chains. To do this job without cutting pushrods the head must be removed. I handed this shop a blank check and told them to formally inspect and measure every component they touched and any part not within the top 10% of the 'normal' spec was to be replaced without contacting me. IF a majority of the parts were in need then they has permission to do the entire motor. Normally these shoes wear out in roughly 30 to 35 thousand miles and need to be caught before getting to the base metal which totals the motor. In addition these motors require 20W50. 

 

I got called about a day later to come to the shop for a look inside and the inspection report to be explained. Not only were the shoes over 90% yet there was no measurable wear on any component! The cam chains would pass inspection for new. In fact the cam lobes didn't have a track in them yet. There was ZERO...ZERO deposits in this motor. Not a hint of yellow or bronzing anywhere to be seen. I took it to the shop at 48K miles. This motor looks inside like a new motor freshly assembled.

 

They had several others in there for the same service that had all their services done in house and using Screaming Eagle 20W50 per the 'book'. One headed to the scrap bin and the other two....they were scrapping deposits and replacing parts in the cam chest. ALL Of them.  

 

I think the oil had something to do with this. 

 

 

I like examples like this.  Hard to prove that the oil didn't do it's job.  Quality oil protects.  HD Screaming Eagle oil in my opinion was made because HD was loosing customers to AMSOIL and other synthetics and wanted to get in on that $$$.  Of course it is made for HD and the quality I feel is at  the level of just meeting specification.  HD is out to make money not lubricants.

[Grumpy Bear]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I am not pro-AMSOIL. I am PRO-PAO/POE which includes oils 'like' AMSOIL SS....and Red Line HP....and MPT30K...and SynLube.

I've been thinking about this all day and something came to mind so painfully obvious I felt stupid when I realized the simplicity of it's nature. 

 

Not one of these four oils is driven by market forces or legal to HIDE THE BASE OILS THEY USE. Fact is...they are very proud  and make concerted efforts to assure you of the makeup of their product. Why do these four not consider their base oils proprietary? Simple really. There is nothing currently superior in performance. 

 

The only other oil I know of that is willing to tell you the base oil used is Pennzoil/Shell and ONLY for the Ultra Platinum/Helix lines, a GTL. They...like others fall into the group below discussed.....

 

Every other brand cloaks the base in secrecy; hiding in proprietary/intellectual claims while 'claiming' it is equal in performance to a PAO or POE and yet not telling you what's in it.

 

Doesn't that tell you PAO/POE's is THE benchmark?  

The thing they aspire to be?

 

Secondly; both Exxon/Mobile and Chevron who produce over 80% of the worlds PAO's and Ester production and sell them to these non-producer blenders do have PAO and Ester products that they promote with vigor...just not in their automotive lines of lubricants. That is VERY telling me thinks. Royal Dutch Shell makes currently 100% of the worlds GTL. They are very proud of that fact. Their claim is 'cleaner' not better. Why? Because a claim of 'better' would need some proof they can't provide. 

 

I used Red Line HP in anything that mattered to me for over 20 years. My recent switch to AMSOIL has nothing to do with it being one iota better or worse. It has to do with cost. My current deal is three bucks a quart and shipping cheaper than my Red Line contact for a product that is EQUAL....not better...not worse. IF MPT or SYNLUBE becomes more competitive or Phillips decides to make me a better offer in the Red Line HP series.....I'm off and running in that direction.

 

There is NOTHING else about an oil worth knowing you cannot find out with a VOA.

 

This is where you start protecting your AFM/DOD/VVT/VVL systems.   

 

 

 

 

[Z45]

While you need a great base oil to produce a great product, if you don't follow up with the proper additives and formulations, your great base oil produces an "average" finished product.

 

Btw,  Conoco Phillips purchased Spectrum/Red Line.  What this means is that Red Line now joins the others as a commodity oil, controlled by the bean counters and relegated to using Conoco-Philips as it additive source.

 

" Calumet Specialty Products Partners LP, which has struggled to make profits in recent years, is considering a sale of its finished lubricants business, Bloomberg reported on Oct. 1.  Those brands include Royal Purple and Bel-Ray. "

 

AMSOIL is one of the few remaining privately held oil blenders not beholding to bean counters and shareholder and free to source the best base oil and additives from all over the world. 

 

https://amsoilwind.com/

Edited October 10, 2020 by elcamino
typo

[KARNUT]

As previous mentioned in this thread I used Amsoil because of the performance of their hydraulic and transmission fluid. Their hydraulic oil saved me and my costumers tens of thousands of dollars. It was measured by real performance. The oil was measured by analysts. When I find a product that works as advertised I stay with it. There may be something as good. Unless given a reason to change I stay loyal.


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[Grumpy Bear]

13 minutes ago, elcamino said:

While you need a great base oil to produce a great product, if you don't follow up with the proper additives and formulations, your great base oil produces an "average" finished product.

 

Btw,  Conoco Phillips purchased Spectrum/Red Line.  What this means is that Red Line now joins the others as a commodity oil, controlled by the bean counters and relegated to using Conoco-Philips as it additive source.

 

" Calumet Specialty Products Partners LP, which has struggled to make profits in recent years, is considering a sale of its finished lubricants business, Bloomberg reported on Oct. 1.  Those brands include Royal Purple and Bel-Ray. "

 

AMSOIL is one of the few remaining privately help oil blenders not beholding to bean counters and shareholder and free to source the best base oil and additives from all over the world. 

 

https://amsoilwind.com/

 

8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Phillips decides to make me a better offer in the Red Line HP series

Phillips did as AMSOIL has done by adding additional and 'conventional synthetic' product lines to ride the coat tails of there  'pets'. 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Conoco-Phillips 'additive source'. Many of the additives used in motor oils are also commodity items. ZDDP is a rose by any other name. 

 

The only real difference in the listed names is the amount and choice of additives, i.e. Red Line uses more Moly and AMSOIL uses more Boron. Tomato...tomaaaatoeee

 

Fact is the API mandates and dictates the minimum and maximum amounts of several of the more important additives and then OEM licenses place further restriction on even those within the API requirements. 

 

In the end and as stated before, anything I wish to know about the additives type and amount and effectiveness I can test for via a VOA/UOA.

 

Royal Purple is not among the synthetic brands that is made with a considerable ester base but they do have one of the most aggressive detergent packages I have ever run across. I'm using it now in one of my problem children to clean her out. The GM 2.4. Stuff is like paint stripper. Hope they keep that alive IF sold.