5.3L vs 6.2L V8

[TXGREEK]

Nice. So you're now resorting to personal insults instead of showing any data. I provided a snippet of how a piezoelectric knock sensor works because you were confused. I corrected your claims, buddy lol. My ego suffers no bruises from your unsubstantiated claims or personal insults. I actually am an electrical engineer with both hardware and software experience for embedded devices and frequently work with several large OEMs (I do more than just automotive). 
To correct you trying to put words in my mouth, I never said it will anticipate knock before it can happen. I'm saying knock is not a binary yes there is knock/no there is not knock entity. I'm saying that you can measure the relative combustion volume/knock level and see if you're on the threshold before you get to full blown pinging. No, you won't exactly how far from knocking you are, just that you're at seeing higher combustion pressure rises.
You act like the only vibrations that occur in an engine are knock. You clearly lack the understanding of what knock is and what is causing this vibration. I explained it once but I guess it didn't stick...
 
To try to dumb it down more: as fuel gets ignited, pressure in cylinder rises quickly and this force pushes down on piston. This pressure profile varies greatly depending on when the fuel mixture is ignited (amongst other things). Too late, make reduced torque. Too early, peak pressure occurs as piston still going up (also results in negative work/reduced torque). These vibrations from combustion are ALWAYS PRESENT, but to varying levels depending on when ignition occurs and charge density.
 
Yes, I completely agree that knock sensors cannot see the future. I never claimed they could. They must measure things that already happened. What you repeatedly fail to comprehend is that these vibrations that they see exist in every combustion cycle, regardless of whether knock is happening or not. The relative magnitude of these vibrations are what change as rapid cylinder pressures increase. ECUs sample this analog current/voltage. Misfire detection wouldn't be possible if they saw 0 vibrations except when knock occured.
 
Don't believe me? Go hop on HPT or EFI live and change your knock sensor sensitivity to make it sensitive. You'll get "knock" reported under light throttle. The reverse is true too
 
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I’d ignore it, so many extremely insecure people in these sites that will argue with anyone that has more or knows more. There are followers and there are leaders, only losers and extremely insecure people insult others, makes them feel better cause they’re 40 yr olds that still live in their parents basement.
[emoji6]


Sent from Above

[bamorris2]

Boy this thread really went downhill. Mods need to either clean it up or close it.

[bamorris2]

  .

Edited May 28, 2020 by bamorris2

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, the wanderer said:

 

The point which you're missing, is "reserve power". You can run both trucks up to 60 mph in 13 seconds and then sustain that speed. But the 6.2 has more to give. You feel it the second you ask for a bit more power, or a hill shows up in front of you, or you dip down to 3/4 throttle. Does the 6.2 not feel more effortless to you?

 

Please tell me where I'm going wrong there. Keep it simple, maybe drop down to 6th grade, too many formulas befuddle me.

Could have been where I already conceded that that 6.2 will out accelerate the 5.3 about 3 post back. I'm not an idiot. You missed it in your youthful excitement grasshopper trying, and failing, to 'school' the old guy 

 

That is true. It has a higher reserve. But unless your using that excess CONSTANTLY...so what?

 

Do you normally accelerate faster than the 5.3 is capable of?

That is the question.

The ONLY question. 

 

 If you are, I want to be your lawyer. Your going to need one. 

 

Truth is, and I don't even know you, you don't use more power than the old iron 4.3 in normal day in day out commuting. Your tying to convince me you drive like John Force at every chance to accelerate and I'm calling  HARD.

 

Sit at the end of an on ramp with radar. Time the average pickups time from the rolling entry speed (@ 5 mph) to 70 mph and your gong to find sir most people don't use 1/3 of the available power. They will take over 15 seconds to reach merge speed from a rolling start. A bit less than .2 G's. A Checker cab can do that. 

 

Will you do it now and again? Probably. 

 

Ever watch that show, "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".

How did you do?

 

 

[Jav_eee]

Have and not need versus need and not have.

/close thread


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[TXGREEK]

Boy this thread really went downhill. Mods need to either clean it up or close it.

Won’t make a difference, it’s like asking someone’s opinion on which weight oil is better or manufacturer recommended, you’ll get lots of opinions and then the insults start and then they attempt to make it personal.


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[the wanderer]

46 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Could have been where I already conceded that that 6.2 will out accelerate the 5.3 about 3 post back. I'm not an idiot. You missed it in your youthful excitement grasshopper trying, and failing, to 'school' the old guy 

 

That is true. It has a higher reserve. But unless your using that excess CONSTANTLY...so what?

 

Do you normally accelerate faster than the 5.3 is capable of?

That is the question.

The ONLY question. 

 

 If you are, I want to be your lawyer. Your going to need one. 

 

Truth is, and I don't even know you, you don't use more power than the old iron 4.3 in normal day in day out commuting. Your tying to convince me you drive like John Force at every chance to accelerate and I'm calling  HARD.

 

Sit at the end of an on ramp with radar. Time the average pickups time from the rolling entry speed (@ 5 mph) to 70 mph and your gong to find sir most people don't use 1/3 of the available power. They will take over 15 seconds to reach merge speed from a rolling start. A bit less than .2 G's. A Checker cab can do that. 

 

Will you do it now and again? Probably. 

 

Ever watch that show, "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".

How did you do?

 

 

The point is, you do use that extra power, constantly. Every RPM your truck is at, the 6.2 is making more power at the same RPM. Even mild acceleration, the 6.2 does it easier and more effortlessly. You don't have to be WOT throttle to notice it.

 

Want to go from 0 to 60 in 15 seconds? Yup, both can do it.

Want to go from 0 to 60 in 10 seconds? Yup, both can do it, but the 4.3 is straining at this point. The 6.2 is still sipping its morning coffee.

Want to go from 0 to 60 in 7 seconds? Oops, You can't.

 

That's the issue; the effort it takes to increase your acceleration. The more you want to increase it, the more you notice the difference.

 

I can't believe this is such a hard concept for somebody who, you know, knows complex things like formulas and sh_t. I have to believe you're trolling at this point because nobody can be that dense.

Edited May 28, 2020 by the wanderer

[TXGREEK]

The point is, you do use that extra power, constantly. Every RPM your truck is at, the 6.2 is making more power at the same RPM. Even mild acceleration, the 6.2 does it easier and more effortlessly. You don't have to be WOT throttle to notice it.
 
Want to go from 0 to 60 in 15 seconds? Yup, both can do it.
Want to go from 0 to 60 in 10 seconds? Yup, both can do it, but the 4.3 is straining at this point. The 6.2 is still sipping its morning coffee.
Want to go from 0 to 60 in 7 seconds? Oops, You can't.
 
That's the issue; the effort it takes to increase your acceleration. The more you want to increase it, the more you notice the difference.
 
I can't believe this is such a hard concept for somebody who, you know, knows complex things like formulas and sh_t. I have to believe you're trolling at this point because nobody can be that dense.

Btw, it’s less than 7 seconds. I use that extra power each and every time I put it into drive [emoji6].


Sent from Above

[Jonofmac]

I'll admit I gun mine at a lot at lights. Maybe not full wot but enough to get it to shift around 4k rpm. It's just how I drive drive I've been accustomed to more power than necessary.

I give the truck more gas since I'm used to the ease of acceleration that a 650 HP vette gives you, so I end up pushing the truck more to keep up with leisure acceleration in my Vette lol

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Edited May 28, 2020 by Jonofmac

[N55_6MT]

1 hour ago, the wanderer said:

The point is, you do use that extra power, constantly. Every RPM your truck is at, the 6.2 is making more power at the same RPM. 

Again, this isn’t true. It takes the same amount of power to accelerate the same mass at the same rate, no matter the engine or how much power it can produce.

 

Assuming mass, rolling resistance, drag ect. were the same you could take a truck with a 5.3 and a truck with a 6.2, set them side by side, accelerate them at the same rate they would take the exact same amount of power get to the same speed. 
 

You’re only using that extra power when you’re commanding more output than the other engine could deliver at a given RPM at WOT. That’s why it’s extra power.

 

I’m pretty happy with my 5.3 because it delivers more than enough power for the workload I require. For day to day driving around town I never come close to maxing out the engine, it’s only when towing that I begin to utilize the full output of the engine and would begin to “feel” any difference.

[Jonofmac]

Again, this isn’t true. It takes the same amount of power to accelerate the same mass at the same rate, no matter the engine or how much power it can produce.
 
Assuming mass, rolling resistance, drag ect. were the same you could take a truck with a 5.3 and a truck with a 6.2, set them side by side, accelerate them at the same rate they would take the exact same amount of power get to the same speed. 
 
You’re only using that extra power when you’re commanding more output than the other engine could deliver at a given RPM at WOT. That’s why it’s extra power.
 
I’m pretty happy with my 5.3 because it delivers more than enough power for the workload I require. For day to day driving around town I never come close to maxing out the engine, it’s only when towing that I begin to utilize the full output of the engine and would begin to “feel” any difference.

Your statement would be true except for one major thing:
Transmission gearing. The 5.3 winds gears out a bit more for the same acceleration of the 6.2 since the 6.2 makes more torque.

The power to the wheels is the same to accelerate both vehicles, but the power produced at the engine will not necessarily be the same.

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[N55_6MT]

11 minutes ago, Jonofmac said:

Your statement would be true except for one major thing:
Transmission gearing. The 5.3 winds gears out a bit more for the same acceleration of the 6.2 since the 6.2 makes more torque.

The power to the wheels is the same to accelerate both vehicles, but the power produced at the engine will not necessarily be the same.

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Absolutely, I mentioned this in my last post a few pages back. There is much more at play here than just displacement when it comes to what you “feel” when accelerating. The last few generations of 6.2 not only make more power, but have also been mated to different transmissions which can have a huge impact in perceived performance.
 

A 5.3 might have higher shift points at a given acceleration compared to a 6.2, which you will absolutely notice visually and audibly, but the capability of the truck would still be the same. It’s going to either be able to accelerate at that rate or not. Thermodynamically one engine might be slightly more efficient than the other at a certain partial loads, but this is more of a concern for fuel economy than performance.

 

The key to me is my own perceived difference in “performance” between a ‘16 5.3/6sp/3.73 and my current ‘20 5.3/10sp/3.23. To my highly calibrated butt cheeks I would say the 5.3 in the ‘20 makes more power, but it’s really just the transmission programming allowing the engine to hold lower revs due to closer gear spacing and smoother shifts. The reality is the engine doesn’t make any more or less power, it’s just delivered in a different fashion which makes it feel like the engine isn’t working as hard.

Edited May 28, 2020 by N55_6MT

[Jonofmac]

2 hours ago, N55_6MT said:

Absolutely, I mentioned this in my last post a few pages back. There is much more at play here than just displacement when it comes to what you “feel” when accelerating. The last few generations of 6.2 not only make more power, but have also been mated to different transmissions which can have a huge impact in perceived performance.
 

A 5.3 might have higher shift points at a given acceleration compared to a 6.2, which you will absolutely notice visually and audibly, but the capability of the truck would still be the same. It’s going to either be able to accelerate at that rate or not. Thermodynamically one engine might be slightly more efficient than the other at a certain partial loads, but this is more of a concern for fuel economy than performance.

 

The key to me is my own perceived difference in “performance” between a ‘16 5.3/6sp/3.73 and my current ‘20 5.3/10sp/3.23. To my highly calibrated butt cheeks I would say the 5.3 in the ‘20 makes more power, but it’s really just the transmission programming allowing the engine to hold lower revs due to closer gear spacing and smoother shifts. The reality is the engine doesn’t make any more or less power, it’s just delivered in a different fashion which makes it feel like the engine isn’t working as hard.

Fair. I think the biggest difference you notice between the two is the 10 speed. Muuuuch shorter 1st gear ratio, really allows these things to move out from a dig pretty well. I'm coming from a 4 speed 4L80 in my cammed, head swapped, and stalled LQ4 in a 2003 2500HD lol. This 6.2 walks it from a dig (when it hooks, or if I use 4wd to launch). From a roll, I still think the 6.2 is faster  The 2500 was a heavy girl, i got it across the scales and it weighed 6340 lbs and was making ~500 HP (crank, no idea what wheel was) over the stock 300 HP it made.

 

I think my favorite thing about the 6.2 over the 5.3 when I was driving both was the torque at low RPMs. It would just effortlessly accelerate while maintaining low RPMs. Again, I'm coming from a stalled truck (3200 rpm stall), so when I was accelerating at all, i'd be at 4k rpm minimum. Perhaps it's a matter of perspective for me haha

[KARNUT]

The whole point of this thread has been missed like usual. Which engine is better was the question. They’re all good. Which is faster? That depends on the options. Someone says the the hemi is slower than the 5.3. You can get a hemi in a 2 door truck called RT. GM doesn’t do that. Ford puts their fast engine in a 2 door. They run on reg gas. Toyota use to do a dealer installed S/C. I haven’t checked lately, maybe they still do. They’re all fast. The fastest? You’re looking at the wrong brand. GM isn’t building performance trucks. Even though they perform well.

[Ferrari Eater]

On 5/26/2020 at 10:58 PM, Jonofmac said:

Oh my God. Yes. Excuse me for giving a simplified explanation for those that don't have degrees in electrical and computer engineering. First, it's called a piezoelectric crystal, not a piezocrystal. 

Yes, it's not a literal microphone, but it behaves in a similar manner, which is (to simplify it) convert combustion noise into an electrical current which can be sampled by a MCU's ADC. That vibration they detect is always present, not just during knock. Combustion is noisy.  

 

 

Have you personally tuned a knock ****** system? Because unless you have, you have nothing to stand on other than your (lack of) "knowledge". I know how these systems work and have worked with them with several large OEMs. Knock is not a binary thing, despite what you think. There is not only a pinging that the ECU detects. The piezoelectric crystal characteristics are tuned for a resonant frequency to make actual knock frequencies more sensitive than combustion noise (glorified band pass filter). Since knock is not a simple YES/NO, they actually can (and DO) estimate how close to knocking you are. The "noise" from knock, is a result of peak cylinder pressure happening too early, and creates a non smooth pressure waveform vs time (if you plot cylinder pressure through the cycle). This jagged edge of pressure creates the pinging you hear, however the knock sensors are sensitive enough to pick up smaller magnitudes of this and even the absence of knock (misfire detection, anyone?). They have several different thresholds uses to determine when knock has happened, which vary per RPM, and load, and even cylinder which are uses to determine the relative "volume" of the combustion. This is not up for debate, this is quite simply how the systems work. It is NOT just responding to knock which has already occured, if that were true, misfire detection would not work). I even attached some literature for you to show I'm not talking out of my ass. Yes, it is tuned to detect knock frequencies (that's the goal of a knock sensor), but they measure the knock level. Note that knock level is merely an amplitude of combustion noise for a given frequency, and this can range from none to full on audible pinging.

 

 

I don't care how you think these systems work, dude. Thank you for providing literally 0 explanation to how you think the systems work and proving you don't actually know. Go back to buying canned tunes. Please don't spread misinformation.

 

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Holy moly. Someone is passionate about this topic.