Another oil thread

KARNUT · November 14, 2023

2 minutes ago, OnTheReel said:

As soon as I had kids that belief went out the window.

Pretty much have to handle some people as adult children now that I think of it.

Try dealing with elderly parents. My wife is dealing with both. Ones in Texas, the other in North Carolina. We’re dealing with a situation where the one in North Carolina has a predator care provider who showed her hand too soon. The other is on the verge of going to assisted living. She mixes up her meds. Both of course maintain they’re good right now, maybe later.

OnTheReel · November 14, 2023

3 hours ago, KARNUT said:

Try dealing with elderly parents. My wife is dealing with both. Ones in Texas, the other in North Carolina. We’re dealing with a situation where the one in North Carolina has a predator care provider who showed her hand too soon. The other is on the verge of going to assisted living. She mixes up her meds. Both of course maintain they’re good right now, maybe later.

Went down that road with my dad years ago. Stubborn as a mule. And tough taking driving away from someone who’s only hobby was cars. In and out of nursing homes and home help too. It’s a battle but I hope you guys can get things squared away for the betterment of everyone involved.

Grumpy Bear · November 15, 2023

4 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Went down that road with my dad years ago. Stubborn as a mule. And tough taking driving away from someone who’s only hobby was cars. In and out of nursing homes and home help too. It’s a battle but I hope you guys can get things squared away for the betterment of everyone involved.

Dad turned 95 in September. Man is a driving machine. What people usually say about my driving. I wasn't that good at the peak of racing. Still hits like a mule kick. Hands like a knotted plow line. And boys, nothing is learned in the second kick of mule. :crackup: I learned debate from this guy, and I still lose him. His body is wasting away and that is sad but the person he is inside, and his skill sets are not diminished one iota. A few years ago, a windstorm took down 60 feet of his six-foot privacy fence. I have photos of a 93-year-old setting 6X6 fence post by hand. Dozens of them. Took him days, not weeks and didn't want any help. Thank goodness.

Grumpy Bear · November 15, 2023

.22 short, 5.56x45mm NATO, .220 Swift. .22-250 Remington, .223 Remington All the same caliber. Much different ballistics. Much different bore wear rates. Even that changes with number or rounds fired and rate of fire and even the manufacture of the gun fired from. Each has its own fingerprint. So do motor wear rates. For many of the same reasons.

We get lazy with modern oils thinking wear metals must be zero to be good. Or that 1 ppm is a huge difference from 2 ppm. Statistically irrelevant.

Best to find what is NORMAL than drive yourself round the bend looking for something the 'fingerprint' will not allow.

Years ago, I found that bore wear could be different enough that wear on tear down looked very different even when the same oil was used, and motors were run by the same person. The difference was the bore material, hardness and bore finish between manufactures and sometimes from same manufacture over several years. It's, in part, the reason diesels last longer than gas motors. Bore hardness, ring material. Well, and oil volume. Guys try to run diesel like OCI's on Gas motor sump capacity that are a fraction of those motors.

If you truly have a design or metallurgy issue then to get relief you have to address those issues, Not the oil. Reason guys who have failed this test several times are using Johnson lifters and Comp Cams.

Trock Cycle started fabricating cylinders made of nodular iron blanks at first to marry one Harley bottom end to another top. Shove-ster's? Shovel heads on an Iron Sportster bottom end or Knuckle Heads on Shovel bottoms. I.E. OEM cylinders were a cast grey iron. Soft. As an aside the motor life went from 30 K to 80K on top ends. Bore hardness. Today liners in alloy castings with steel rings and modern full SAPS V-Twin oils have those motors running 100K+.

One of the things Blackstone got right was a large library of engine types and factory tune levels base on drain intervals. The service may be McDonalds, but the library is Porterhouse.

KARNUT · November 15, 2023

7 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Dad turned 95 in September. Man is a driving machine. What people usually say about my driving. I wasn't that good at the peak of racing. Still hits like a mule kick. Hands like a knotted plow line. And boys, nothing is learned in the second kick of mule. I learned debate from this guy, and I still lose him. His body is wasting away and that is sad but the person he is inside, and his skill sets are not diminished one iota. A few years ago, a windstorm took down 60 feet of his six-foot privacy fence. I have photos of a 93-year-old setting 6X6 fence post by hand. Dozens of them. Took him days, not weeks and didn't want any help. Thank goodness.

My father in law was still driving 3 weeks ago at last visit at 92. Drove fine, drives fast. It’s a challenge in Fayetteville more than Houston or Atlanta. It must be all the young military drivers. His problem is getting to and from walking . Here we are just 3 weeks later he’s in the hospital with pneumonia looking at hospice or nursing home. Getting a caretaker a recent employee out of his house. We’re wishing we were more forcefully encouraging him to go to assisted living. It’s amazing how quickly things change.

Edited November 15, 2023 by KARNUT

Grumpy Bear · December 10, 2023

Chevron DELO 600 10w30

HDMO-80.pdf (chevron.com)

customboss · December 10, 2023

SDS breakout. Remember what's not reported may be more important than the SDS reportable constitutents. Here's my educated guesses of the DELO 600 ADF 10w30. It starts cold about 5 psi higher OP than 5w30 QS Syn, Mobil1 5w30, Mobil full syn 5w30 products. Allowed to idle through start up BITE check of instruments that drops to 30 psi or less in a minute.

First CAS is Paralux 2401 or Paralux 6001

Second is most likely 100R

Some of this :

Third " Highly refined mineral oil" ( C15-50 ) MIX could be a mix of GRP 1,2,3 :

customboss · December 10, 2023

Chevron base oils are really high quality based on the API grouping. Low sulfur, relatively high VI for petroleum feedstock, high saturates that rival PAO.

Note API base oils groupings:

Grumpy Bear · December 11, 2023

@Customboss, have you run an unused oil sample on this product?

customboss · December 11, 2023

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

@Customboss, have you run an unused oil sample on this product?

No. My service is totally shut down and so is Nicks since I have mentally regressed a bit.

I have enough background on the formulation I confirmed via others data. I shared a Bklabs clean reference 15w40 sample on another thread. Same add pack for the 10w30.

Grumpy Bear · December 11, 2023

This is one strange looking report. Blackstone wasn't even sure what it was.

I found mention of Chevrons use of high levels of potassium in their formulations on a diesel site. Understanding the dark art of engine oil analysis - Truck News

2015 RAM EcoDiesel 3.0L - 7,497mi - Delo 600 ADF 15w40 | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Then on BITOG, some fella calls himself "MolaKule" on the use of Potassium Borate as the primary antiwear agent. Okay now I know what I'm looking for, so...

Then this abstract as I chased this rabbit down his hole. Nope, I'm not going to buy it even though I should....

The extreme pressure and lubricating behaviors of potassium borate nanoparticles as additive in PAO | Semantic Scholar

TBN between the VOA and UOA at 7,500 miles is not impressive. 4.6 to 1. Doesn't seem a long-haul oil in pans sizes used in pickups. Wear metals look troubling in this one-off example. Nickle, Copper and Chrome.

Wish people would run acid numbers with the base values.

A UOA

customboss · December 11, 2023

On 11/14/2023 at 10:44 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

.22 short, 5.56x45mm NATO, .220 Swift. .22-250 Remington, .223 Remington All the same caliber. Much different ballistics. Much different bore wear rates. Even that changes with number or rounds fired and rate of fire and even the manufacture of the gun fired from. Each has its own fingerprint. So do motor wear rates. For many of the same reasons.

We get lazy with modern oils thinking wear metals must be zero to be good. Or that 1 ppm is a huge difference from 2 ppm. Statistically irrelevant.

Best to find what is NORMAL than drive yourself round the bend looking for something the 'fingerprint' will not allow.

Years ago, I found that bore wear could be different enough that wear on tear down looked very different even when the same oil was used, and motors were run by the same person. The difference was the bore material, hardness and bore finish between manufactures and sometimes from same manufacture over several years. It's, in part, the reason diesels last longer than gas motors. Bore hardness, ring material. Well, and oil volume. Guys try to run diesel like OCI's on Gas motor sump capacity that are a fraction of those motors.

If you truly have a design or metallurgy issue then to get relief you have to address those issues, Not the oil. Reason guys who have failed this test several times are using Johnson lifters and Comp Cams.

Trock Cycle started fabricating cylinders made of nodular iron blanks at first to marry one Harley bottom end to another top. Shove-ster's? Shovel heads on an Iron Sportster bottom end or Knuckle Heads on Shovel bottoms. I.E. OEM cylinders were a cast grey iron. Soft. As an aside the motor life went from 30 K to 80K on top ends. Bore hardness. Today liners in alloy castings with steel rings and modern full SAPS V-Twin oils have those motors running 100K+.

One of the things Blackstone got right was a large library of engine types and factory tune levels base on drain intervals. The service may be McDonalds, but the library is Porterhouse.

Good post on tribological wear in weapons etc..... allow me to share personal experience having been in the business before Bklabs was even founded. Jim Stark fellow Army veteran and( RIP passed a few years ago) of Blackstone bought a recip engine general aviation data base from the Okie who owned what became Bklabs. Their data base is self made for automotive and is not as accurate as one would think. Their interpretations are poor at best. They have no FTIR or accurate water or fuels readings. Pentane insolubles the only accurate testing outside of their ICP. The son and daughter of Jim run the business and its lucrative because people will purchase for the price.

Drawing anything other than ICP data and insolubles are the only good indicators. The statistical data is not accurate.

customboss · December 11, 2023

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

This is one strange looking report. Blackstone wasn't even sure what it was.

I found mention of Chevrons use of high levels of potassium in their formulations on a diesel site. Understanding the dark art of engine oil analysis - Truck News

2015 RAM EcoDiesel 3.0L - 7,497mi - Delo 600 ADF 15w40 | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Then on BITOG, some fella calls himself "MolaKule" on the use of Potassium Borate as the primary antiwear agent. Okay now I know what I'm looking for, so...

Then this abstract as I chased this rabbit down his hole. Nope, I'm not going to buy it even though I should....

The extreme pressure and lubricating behaviors of potassium borate nanoparticles as additive in PAO | Semantic Scholar

TBN between the VOA and UOA at 7,500 miles is not impressive. 4.6 to 1. Doesn't seem a long-haul oil in pans sizes used in pickups. Wear metals look troubling in this one-off example. Nickle, Copper and Chrome.

Wish people would run acid numbers with the base values.

A UOA

I am with you so far. I researched new EP chemistries in another life AND my 2.7L Turbo L3B has some particularly peculiar and interesting characteristics that most here don't have with the V8's and V6's or your experience with the smaller auto 4's.

Sliding wear, heavier diesel capable built ring and cylinders, lighter weight LOW tension and contact pressures in valve train design with a dedicated intregal #2 and # 3 mechanical cylinder deactivation that you cannot disable accomplished by sliding in and out on twin cams.

DI pintle contamination by oil films flipping into their injector tips by the 5w30 dexos chemistries where ash could and can be a degredation.

GM not requiring a cool down cooking a portion of the oil sitting near the turbo that removes the additives by heat attachment to the internal journal and bearings areas causing what we see as oil consumption over 5000-7000 miles. In drag racing back in my day I had sponsored racing engines heat blankets REMOVE and ATTACH most of the ZDDP/ZDPT and other organo metallic adds onto the oil pan and first run the engines blew with brand new oil that had not been circulated first. Similar issues with HD bike drag racing that I know you followed.

No one is selling this oil or chemistry to you or others here, its a proof of concept that I bet GM folks who might read here will take notice of and may help make better contract lubes for us.

customboss · December 11, 2023

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

hen on BITOG, some fella calls himself "MolaKule" on the use of Potassium Borate as the primary antiwear agent. Okay now I know what I'm looking for, so...

A smart Boeing employee who misrepresents himself as a chemist and a physcist. He lies about his background and degrees which is sad becasue he is very intelligent. I worked with him and found him sharp but an opportunist. He is now a full time employee it seems at BITOG and very dogmatic against anyone who challenges him. He'll jump over your dead body to screw his friends to get ahead. He also lies about being a PhD.

Here's where the K additives started in our tribology world. I'll add the file.