Another oil thread

[diyer2]

Grumpy,

Don't blame yourself for a motor that has problems due to a poor design, not poor maintenance. Sell the vehicle or replace the motor. 

[KARNUT]

40 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Grumpy,

Don't blame yourself for a motor that has problems due to a poor design, not poor maintenance. Sell the vehicle or replace the motor. 

I often wonder how much he’s spent on it since 100K miles trying to reverse the problem. Maybe just flushing the engine prior to an oil change and just drive it. I’ve had a couple oil users from new. Of course they say within specs. They both served a normal life never causing a problem. I remember part of getting gas was checking oil. Adding a qt a tank wasn’t unusual. My first job after getting my license was in a gas station. A full service. Checking the oil was part of it. Ultimately I’d dump that turd.

Edited March 8, 2022 by KARNUT

[diyer2]

First job, paper route. Second fruit market.

Third job was in a gas station, full service. Checking the oil was part of it. 

[Grumpy Bear]

On 3/8/2022 at 7:08 AM, diyer2 said:

Grumpy,

Don't blame yourself for a motor that has problems due to a poor design, not poor maintenance. Sell the vehicle or replace the motor. 

 

Can it be sold? Yes, But I can't sell it. Wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Just dishonest. IMHO. I respect my maker more that I fear any man. 

 

Replacing the motor with a crate doesn't fix anything. Replace junk with the same junk. Zero sum game. 

 

I don't have enough information on Jasper to know what's what with them. Just self proclaimed claims. Besides, I'm not convinced it's rings. Stuck rings is the result not the reason. 

 

No, my choice  of a way out is through. And through is still my cheapest option. Remember I have TWO of these. I learn on one and avoid with the other. Unless I figure this out the other is a sitting duck. 

 

GM got suited and lost that 42 million dollar suit. There conclusion was poor ring design. My question is, if that is true then why do they go 80K or more before failure? The failure is cumulative and recoverable. I have the breather figured out. Now it just getting it clean inside again. Again, stuck rings are the result not the reason. 

 

 http://www.chevroletproblems.com/ecotec-oil-consumption/

 

This thing went south at about 80K miles and I now have 162,000 on her. Twice that many. I'm already way ahead.

Cost was a few more oil changes  and some chemicals; and I've learned allot about this motor. The rest was money that needed spending. Tune up and such. How am I hurt by this? Aggravated? Yes! Hurt? No. This is one of the cheapest educations I've ever been given. Cheaper yet for those that follow Dizzy's story. Like FREE cheap. 

 

If I make it, there is a solution. If not, a trail of things that did not work no one has to repeat. I'm the only possible looser in this adventure and I've already WON.  

 

Not to worry how much I've spent now is there?  Ya' all's ride it FREE. Enjoy it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

Buying any use car is a crap shoot and should be reflective in the price. We bought a Mazda 3 for my Grandaughter for a song a little over a year ago. Once a month it needs transmission fluid. We told her to prepare for a rebuild. It’s still going. I sold my 92 truck 2 years ago using oil like it has for the 12 years I’ve owned it. It still is and it’s his daily driver. Unknown to me my Avalanche had a cracked head water in the oil. I put in bars leak 2 years still going. I understand the quest to remedy the problem. Selling a mostly used up car is a fact of life. Not disclosing the problem is the sin. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Reflections

 

9/12/2022

 

My eyes may be getting dimmer but the minds eye is getting clearer. 

 

Oil does a job, many in fact. It can do them better with chemistry. How much chemistry? Depends on the base oils natural ability to do the job but.....seems however this is a game of relativity.

 

Wear for example. I'd prefer the machine never wear out. The OEM has no such wish. I'd prefer the oil protect. The blender has no such wish past an expectation. But both have an interest in creating the illusion of a long time. So what is a long time? 

 

Reading the post of another member it's a moving target of sorts. Long enough to keep warranty claims to a bearable minimum. Long enough to give the consumer enough confidence in the product to buy another. Not so long as to inhibit future sales to the detriment of the companies bottom line. So it becomes a matter of the OEM/Blender to manage the expectations of the consumer. As generations pass along that number gets lower and lower as these guys 'Groom" the next generation of consumer. Frankly I think it would be much more efficient for them to just rob you at gun point and lobby for a law the allows such behavior. 

 

Ever hear the term 'over additized". Remember I said an oils ability to do a job can be enhanced with chemistry? Let's just assume for the argument at hand that the correct additive is being used for say...wear control. 

 

How much do we add? It could be a straight forward question but....it won't be. Let's a have a look.

 

We've settled on a base oil so what are we looking for? Well anti-wear is suppose to inhibit wear. Inhibit...now there is a word, eh? Kind of like bullet resistant. Air is bullet resistant but I'd like a bit more protection that air provides. 

 

True fact. Until the film thickness is less than the asperity (surface roughness) height there is no wear. Wear additives are there to inhibit wear when film thickness is less than asperity height. Start up. Loads high enough to squeeze the film thinner than required. Heats high enough to wane viscosity and thus film thickness. In essence the three factors in the Stibeck Curve. Load, Speed, Viscosity (which is heat dependent). 

 

Simpler? Wear additives are the last line of defense when the film fails to be thick enough. So....how much?

 

It's a wide range with many considerations that are not wear related. Cost. Compatibility. Regulation. Rate effectiveness. this las one gets allot of attention. 

 

There is a concentration where wear is as low as it can be prevented. A Goldilocks ppm value if you will. There MAY be a point where the additive itself becomes a negative such as causing corrosion. There maybe a point of maximum solubility but that concentration will exist where minimum wear is assured. So...again...what is over additized?

 

1.) When the concentration exceeds the peak wear reduction point FOR THE APPLICATION.

2.) Where it's positive effect on wear is eclipsed by the negatives such as corrosion that can not be hindered with a secondary treatment.

3.) When it exceeds the limit of solubility.  

4.) Where is becomes to expensive to use for the target price point. 

5.) When it exceeds some point of governmental regulation or ancillary equipment integrity. Cat converters for example. OR perhaps some operational issues result. 

 

And two of my personal favorites: 

6.) When it becomes so effective that it hinders future sales margins. 

7.) It interferes with the Grooming Process of future customers yet to be born. 

 

Think of Mick D's long range plans since day one to get the children of present consumers to be more regular patrons than their parents. What do you think happy meals and toys are about? 

 

The amount of additive in that bottle hinges on more than performance standards. 

 

Let's go back to point #5 and how it can be used to facilitate point #7.   Converters and O2 sensors which you daddy's Buick did not have CAN be damaged by these additives. CAN is a really big word than hinges on those additives actually getting to those components in enough volume to damage them. It's kind of a big number. 

 

But what if your company can not seal a power cylinder to save its life? Oh it can be done and you could have your cake and eat it to but...that is not profitable. To make the regulators happy with your crappy product you have to lower the level of additive. To do that you have to GROOM the customer into believing huge oil consumption is "NORMAL" and that motor life past 150K is UNREALLISTIC. You also have to get them to believe than what they witnessed for decades was not what they witnessed. 

 

So what do we get. My product provides 6X more wear protection. Cool if the unstated point of reference is nothing. Six time zero is still zero and still not a lie but very misleading. 

 

3X cleaner? This one is funny. My expectation is to take the motor apart at 1 million miles and have it look new inside. I have this expectation because I WITTNESSED it. So.....3X implies that some level of 'dirty' is not just acceptable but a target to be met. The 'minimum standard' set forth by the API. Oh happy me. The standard is as dirty as possible and not fail during a warranty period while GROOMING to you believe dirty is fine as long as.... Would you like a side of gum and ash with your carrots and peas sir? It was on the floor for less than three seconds mam.

 

 

 

 Perception management.

 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

I’ve seen oils that offer extended protection. I’ve seen them lower temperature in extreme conditions. Double hydraulic and transmission life. I’ve seen in over 40 years of driving that vehicles expected life has tripled. The exception my be GM. The two leading manufacturers in regards to extended vehicle life, Honda and Toyota both have extended oil change intervals. I’ve owned both. Cylinder deactivation and Direct injection has lessened engine life in some engines. Putting a strain on engine oils. Changing often and more oil capacity is common in some GM vehicles. My experience most things last longer. There is a tipping point to where longevity and economic harm is considered. And what a costumer will pay for longevity. The longest lasting midsize truck is the Tacoma. The same brand makes the longest lasting full sized truck. As well as luxury vehicles. And they cost more. Chevys still look better and ride better. It doesn’t take much research to find Chevys problems the last few years. You see more Chevys than Tacomas and Tundras. People wouldn’t pay for longevity. A personal example. I have a lot to mow. I buy a mid grade lawn tractor. I don’t like working on them. Belt changing, blades, even oil changing. My target is Ten years. I get that. A John Deere would easily last twice that. But not the wear items. I don’t have to deal with that. My saturation point has routinely been 3 years at most with vehicles new or used even with my Camry. My granddaughter drives it now. I’m not that unusual. Most people are like that. I never owned a Tundra.

[diyer2]

No matter what fluid you choose, the determining factor is how often are you going to change it IMO. 

[KARNUT]

4 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

No matter what fluid you choose, the determining factor is how often are you going to change it IMO. 

My experience that involves hundreds of right of way equipment and dozens of vehicles is that you can extend oil changes. I’ve done it since the eighties Amsoil mostly. Does changing oil often cause harm no. Does extending? I’ll defer to Amsoil, mobile one, VW, Toyota, Honda, etc. If you want to change every 3K miles Walmart has your oil and will save you money. Why would anyone buy expensive oil and not follow the instructions? Personal preference is one thing, ignoring facts is ignorant. If I change my socks three times a day they’ll last longer. But there’re design to wear all day. I want them  to last longer.  Wife went out to check on husband for dinner. Funeral will be Saturday. Had a heart attack changing his oil.

[Grumpy Bear]

2 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

No matter what fluid you choose, the determining factor is how often are you going to change it IMO. 

 

BINGO!

That has also been GROOMED.

 

 

Ever notice the difference between Euro and North American lubricants? Poke around the Kendall site and compare the product data sheets for the various 5W30's. They are pretty liberal with their information (Phillips Petroleum) 

 

 

 

[diyer2]

Karnut your experience with extended services is well documented, you also used higher quality fluids. Did you get your Amsoil fluids cheaper being you were a dealer? Most people use regular fluids and they will push them to the limit to save a few bucks. My ongoing point is fluids are cheap IMO no matter the cost compared to repairs. Also every time you have work done it can open another can of worms, not always but possible. 

We just have different means to get to the same place.  

[customboss]

In a normal world fuel used is more important than engine oil. 

 

Making an engine oil that does more than " lift and separate" and cool is overkill to compensate for the realities of our fuels in IC engines that have to meet emissions and filtered venting. 

 

Since the IC engine is a self propelled air compressor( once fired), the ability to fire that fuel charge efficiently is the next variable. 

 

In 43 years of  tribology sciences the ONLY reason I ever formulated an engine oil to do more than cool and separate parts with friction stabilization was because of those other two variables, fuel quality ( usually lack of) and combustion efficiency......Regardless of emissions...

 

Hey Grumpy most of the readers fathers here were born AFTER catalytic converters were mandated......yes Sir, we are old. 

 

 

 

 

[diyer2]

I can control the oil and filters used but how do I test/control the fuel used?

[customboss]

2 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I can control the oil and filters used but how do I test/control the fuel used?

You can't directly.  Baseline fuels are mandated to a certain level of quality that works for most.  Fuel makers won't change until they have to make better quality fuels.  No one is forcing them to do that market or otherwise. Because most of us accept the crap gasolines and poor quality diesel. 

 

2 indirect ways.....

 

1) use  oil analysis to see how a particular fuel performed. See Nick/Black02Silverado for a service that looks deep enough to see fuel and combustion dynamic at play.  Find a better fuel for your application. 

 

2) Use more ethanol in gasoline mixes because it's cleaner burning AND higher octane. Most modern engines can handle higher levels of ethanol efficiently enough to burn cleaner.  I run E15 most of the time that is minimum rated 86 octane here and it runs cleaner with about same MPG as 87 octane midgrade branded stuff. 

 

3) for diesel engines use premium diesel fuels with high cetane, improved additives that are available racked in, not top treated. CENEX, CO-OP, ExxonMobil diesel clean has everything but cetane, CountryMark, etc.  

 

Grumpy, Nick, Me and OnTheReel now will be testing using Nicks service that can show qualitative delta so you can improve combustion cleanliness.  Unloading whatever oil you want to use.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

44 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Karnut your experience with extended services is well documented, you also used higher quality fluids. Did you get your Amsoil fluids cheaper being you were a dealer? Most people use regular fluids and they will push them to the limit to save a few bucks. My ongoing point is fluids are cheap IMO no matter the cost compared to repairs. Also every time you have work done it can open another can of worms, not always but possible. 

We just have different means to get to the same place.  

My family business offers many oils to customers. Usually small contractors choose Amsoil. The money savings was our reason for using Amsoil. When use as directed you save money. Especially with Hydraulic pumps and extended in field oil changes. I realize with more complex engines (thanks GM) 25K oil changes are a thing of the past. 10-15K oil changes in some vehicles are still possible.  In the 80s-90s 25K oil changes were common. My brother with an elaborate filtration system went 50K miles with Amsoil. The oil tested well throughout. It was on a 95 big daddy dodge truck. It wasn’t pampered. He traded for 2000 Ram diesel that got a banks six gun. And of course a fast fuel filtration and elaborate oil filtration extended with Amsoil. He traded it for a 2005 Hemi Ram. First of three that all still at his shop. The oldest with 250K miles. My mothers 2000 Ford my father’s 98  Ram all run Amsoil extended. That’s just the tip of extended with Amsoil. Over 30 years of extended with Amsoil no oil failures. Yea I’m a believer.