Earth Shattering Oil Analysis "Grumpy's Eyes Only"

[mookdoc6]

Here it is kids!  I will need no response from TXGREEK as we all know AMSOIL is the best!

 

Grumps.....I am also that "guy" so back history on vehicle usage.  I drive mainly like you but probably 10-20mph faster, tow nothing and Rev occasionally 4-5K onto on ramps for HWY's etc.  Differences would be ambient TEMPERATURES and Stop/Go in Heavy Traffic.  Mountain grades are common for the truck too.  My experiment from beginning was long OCI on decent Oil.  ALWAYS 0W-20 nothing outrageous as Oil's & lubricants have come a long, long way in last few decades.  I Have used mainly Mobil 1 EP but have used other major brands too as PRICE dictates my motives.

 

Grumpy asked me if I would ever do a 5k OCI and my response... absolutely NOT!  I don't lie but I noticed that in order to end on 100k it would be about 5k for OCI?  Whatever what are you gonna do?  I won't be doing another 5k that is for SURE!  Why? PRICE dictates my motives.  

 

As we take a look-see into this dilemma of a V-8 running on Group III+ plus vs. Grumps V-6 on Group 4 we have some hair raising non-anecdotal DATA.

Let us remind the viewing audience that Grumps is 267.0sq in  VS. My 344.0sq in of Iron walls where the real McCoy's of Lubricating properties show their true colors?  Especially, in GDI'S a real nasty environment imo.  If anybody cares I guess it would be  22% LESS IRON Walls of friction in V6 vs V8 so I don't want your ONE PECK OF APPLE BASKETS TO GET MIXED UP!  If you don't think VI's of Group III's are not high enough and Low enough NOACK's your absolutely drinking the koolaid!  My next OCI is going to be done on 1.86 per qt!  That is under 15.00 for Lubricant and I get nothing but the biggest smile reading these Highly Well informed Oil Threads! 

Edited January 23, 2020 by mookdoc6
redo

[mookdoc6]

Great! Glad you guys are done with the oil nonsense threads now!  Here is 100k worth of validated oil analysis on 0W-20 that is CORRECT you know the oil that's so thin it promotes premature wear for Fuel Economy?  I even extended the drains out to 10-12k on you guessed it......Crappy Mobil 1 in Excessive temperature climate.

[JimCost2014]

I would love to agree with you, but have been on here for a while now:

[Grumpy Bear]

Saw this post about an hour ago Mook. Sorry. Suggestion? IF it is indeed for my eyes only, PM me.  

 

Okay I've read it several times and I don't know exactly what you are trying to tell me. But I can tell you what I see if that helps. 

 

I see the first line on the report: "This is arguably the best report yet for your pickup". I also see it was on the shortest OCI you've ever done. Then I see: 

On 1/22/2020 at 11:22 PM, mookdoc6 said:

I won't be doing another 5k that is for SURE!  Why? PRICE dictates my motives.  

Boy is that confusing! Better result you don't want to repeat? 

 

Blackstone normally tells you the OCI average for those Universal averages. To compare one OCI to another ppm is divided by miles per ten thousand OCI.  Using your report. (We can't compare to the Universal average because he didn't supply it.)  

 

Your current iron was (6 ppm / 5,019) * 10K = 11.9 ppm

Your best 8K OCI was (13 ppm / 8,333) * 10K = 15.6 ppm 

Your best 10K OCI was (21 ppm / 10,575) * 10K = 19.8 ppm

 

What that says is the longer your OCI the higher the overall wear rate.  Give this a thought. Say I have a pint of oil in a tray and using a file I file for an hour then test the concentration. If I filled for two hours would you expect the concentration to be higher? Certainly, about double. That is why you compare results based on ((ppm/miles) * 10K. Now if your expecting double and get triple, the WEAR RATE has increased. When does that happen? Yea, during the extended portion of the OCI. Proof?

 

Your current iron was 6 ppm over 5K OCI. For the 10K OCI the result, under even wear conditions it would be 12 ppm. Your result for 10K was not double but 3 and 1/2 times higher (21 ppm). That would worry me. But that's just me.

 

 

Now that's apples to apples!  

 

Let's touch on this on a minute: 

On 1/22/2020 at 11:22 PM, mookdoc6 said:

If you don't think VI's of Group III's are not high enough and Low enough NOACK's your absolutely drinking the koolaid!

  I do believe I've said you could run bean oil in them IF YOU CHANGE IT OFTEN ENOUGH. 

 

I don't like Kool-Aid

 

To me it looks like your results prove this. Prediction?! If you maintain your 5K OCI you run that under $2 Dexos1 Gen 2 oil and you will get the same excellent results your got this last period.  

 

On a different note: 

 

Observation. IF your using the same oil for this test, I note that the calcium level for this much shorter OCI is a LOT lower even though you TBN still over five. Either we have had a reformulation to a lower initial value, a change of oil vendor or product line or your TAN is much higher than he thinks. No way to know. He didn't run that test. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Grumpy Bear

[mookdoc6]

32 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Saw this post about an hour ago Mook. Sorry. Suggestion? IF it is indeed for my eyes only, PM me.  

 

Okay I've read it several times and I don't know exactly what you are trying to tell me. But I can tell you what I see if that helps. 

 

I see the first line on the report: "This is arguably the best report yet for your pickup". I also see it was on the shortest OCI you've ever done. Then I see: 

Boy is that confusing! Better result you don't want to repeat? 

 

Blackstone normally tells you the OCI average for those Universal averages. To compare one OCI to another ppm is divided by miles per ten thousand OCI.  Using your report. (We can't compare to the Universal average because he didn't supply it.)  

 

Your current iron was (6 ppm / 5,019) * 10K = 11.9 ppm

Your best 8K OCI was (13 ppm / 8,333) * 10K = 15.6 ppm 

Your best 10K OCI was (21 ppm / 10,575) * 10K = 19.8 ppm

 

What that says is the longer your OCI the higher the overall wear rate.  Give this a thought. Say I have a pint of oil in a tray and using a file I file for an hour then test the concentration. If I filled for two hours would you expect the concentration to be higher? Certainly, about double. That is why you compare results based on ((ppm/miles) * 10K. Now if your expecting double and get triple, the WEAR RATE has increased. When does that happen? Yea, during the extended portion of the OCI. Proof?

 

Your current iron was 6 ppm over 5K OCI. For the 10K OCI the result, under even wear conditions it would be 12 ppm. Your result for 10K was not double but 3 and 1/2 times higher (21 ppm). That would worry me. But that's just me.

 

 

Now that's apples to apples!  

 

Let's touch on this on a minute: 

  I do believe I've said you could run bean oil in them IF YOU CHANGE IT OFTEN ENOUGH. 

 

I don't like Kool-Aid

 

To me it looks like your results prove this. Prediction?! If you maintain your 5K OCI you run that under $2 Dexos1 Gen 2 oil and you will get the same excellent results your got this last period.  

 

On a different note: 

 

Observation. IF your using the same oil for this test, I note that the calcium level for this much shorter OCI is a LOT lower even though you TBN still over five. Either we have had a reformulation to a lower initial value, a change of oil vendor or product line or your TAN is much higher than he thinks. No way to know. He didn't run that test. 

 

 

 

 

No change?  I think they are changing formulation?  SN-Plus driven?  My point Grumpy is I have exceedingly better Iron Wear # on 5K OCI than a V-6 like yours with Group IV I mean it's all pretty obvious.....and it's driven using 0W-20 in Exceedingly hotter climate?  Yet, guy after guy comes on this site touting AMSOIL and Group IV's and OW-20 is useless ONLY FOR FUEL ECONOMY etc,etc, when it's documented right here all that is horse shizt?  I appreciate your feedback I do this crap for people like you. Thanks-Mook!

Edited January 27, 2020 by mookdoc6

[Grumpy Bear]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:44 PM, mookdoc6 said:

No change?  I think they are changing formulation?  SN-Plus driven?  My point Grumpy is I have exceedingly better Iron Wear # on 5K OCI than a V-6 like yours with Group IV I mean it's all pretty obvious.....and it's driven using 0W-20 in Exceedingly hotter climate?  Yet, guy after guy comes on this site touting AMSOIL and Group IV's and OW-20 is useless ONLY FOR FUEL ECONOMY etc,etc, when it's documented right here all that is horse shizt?  I appreciate your feedback I do this crap for people like you. Thanks-Mook!

SN-Plus would account for that yes if the previous API service class was SN. Sure. Makes perfect sense. 

 

I encourage you to contact Blackstone and ask about the validity of comparing motors on such a basis such as swept area or cylinder count. Don't take my word for it. Please. However, I believe you will find that a Ford V8 or Dodge V8 or XYZ of the same motor size will have a different wear 'finger print' than your 5.3. In fact your Ecotec3 will have a wildly different wear rate profile than a Gen 1 327 Chevy. Universal averages of wear metals are the averages of a catalog of the same motor they keep record of. I do understand the logic however and commend you on the effort. I prefer conversations with 'thoughtful' people over reactive individuals. Thank you. 

 

 

 

This graph shows the wear rate of a cylinder over the useful life of a motor. Note that the iron concentration, thus wear rate for identical OCI's, in the sample is ever changing. A graph like this is constructed using the same product changed on the same interval like religion. Because? Rates of wear change with both. This particular motor, a lab rat, also had the same operational conditions. Something we can not warranty.  I love this graph for those that believe that modern engine building techniques have somehow dismissed break in altogether. The spike is lower, granted, but it still there and pronounced. 

 

I also find it of interest that wear rates DROP after the initial spike until wear in (break in) is complete and then slowly rise...well you can read a graph as well as I. Anyway, even though your OCI intervals are not identical, taken as a whole it seems that they are still dropping! That should be happy news for you. So now we get the meat of it.

 

How much time (miles/engine hours) will pass before that first line of demarcation is reached? So far your at 100K/?hours and still dropping? Good for you! So....ask yourself how long it would take to reach that line IF your earlier changes, with the same products were done on the shorter OCI's that show the lowest rates of wear? We can't put a number on that but we can say longer can't we?

 

As far as viscosity grades. You do know my motor has a GM assignment of 5W30, right? You also know that I use 0W20. I've said time and again that the viscosity grade is subject to the average bulk oil temperature and my motor runs considerably cooler than average. Even that said the actual wear between viscosity grades is smaller than most believe.  

 

 

 

Translating temperature for the lower 48, this graph shows 170 F to 230 F to be the point of lowest wear in micrograms/hour wear. Note the difference between 10W and 30 W is really small? Note that during warm up the 30W actually produces a lower wear rate than 10W30. No sir, I'm not of the crowd that believes SAE vis grades are set in stone by the manufacture. They, as said before, are subject to temperature. Cylinder wall temperature.

 

Lastly note that if the motor spends it's life between dead cold and just getting up to temperature (short hop city service) wear rates are killer. Another reason it is hard to compare on motor to another based on wear metals. Also the reason I don't start Pepper for a trip under 100 miles unless she's the only thing on the lot.  

 

So we only have oil Group type left. The superiority of a Group IV/V blend (AMSOI e.g.) over a Group III/Group IV blend (Pennzoil Platinum e.g.) comes three fold. Oxidation resistance, solvency and lubricity. NOT film strength and wear resistance. Not based on base oil chemistry alone anyway. The additive package has allot more to do with boundary layer wear. 

 

Oxidation resistance is important only if long OCI's OR routine high bulk oil temperatures are expected. The bulk of the 'dirt' in oil is oxidation byproducts and it's those products that accelerate abrasion wear. Longer you leave it in, the more abrasive it becomes. The difference in in degree. Like choosing a sandpaper. As the detergent/dispersant becomes depleted or ineffective (they have more than one job) the oxidation particles amalgamate. First large enough to cause accelerated wear and then large enough to deposit...sludge...varnish. Esters (Group V) are solvents. Solvents keep the polymerized oxidation products in solution (liquid) and ease the load on the detergent package AND dissolved previous deposits. It also increases the acid number more rapidly than mineral oils as those dissolved polymers are acidic products, thus the high loads of neutralizers in these products. (People always ask if esters are such good cleaners then  why so much calcium and magnesium). 

 

Most truck "guys" don't care about the increased lubricity. I do. It's part of the method I use to have obtained over 30 mpg for the entire 2019 summer driving basically 55 mph or 6 mpg over the EPA number for that same speed (highway).  Does that pay for my higher oil price. Likely not but the lower average load based wear may. 

 

Anyway Mook, I'm not a hard liner. I don't run Red Line in everything. I run Peak in my Honda these days. I just lowered the OCI from 7.5 to 5K. It isn't GDI. I'll likely change Pepper over to AMSOIL because of the shipping changes I pay on Red Line. I took the wife's Terrain off Red Line due to the oil usage and phosphorus content do not make O2 sensors or cats happy. Uses about a pint in 5K. Right on the boarder. I'm flexible. 

 

Okay, I got things to do. I'll check back later. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Grumpy Bear

[Black02Silverado]

Nice report.  Don't forget you have an 8qt sump and you added oil.  It would have been a better show of how the oil did if you didn't add any.  Not that what you added made much of a difference but it still effects the results.

[mookdoc6]

Thanks Guys!  I have always added 1/4 to 1/2 qt depending on miles.  Reason being is because I always under fill crankcase by said amount and weeks later bring it up.  As usual Grumps lays out some nice info....appreciate that!  I feel I am probably nearing the line or crossing into the "Normal Operation" we shall see in another 20k?  This puppy is so predictable and reliable can't wait to hammer another 100k on this thing!

Edited January 28, 2020 by mookdoc6

[Grumpy Bear]

22 minutes ago, mookdoc6 said:

Thanks Guys!  I have always added 1/4 to 1/2 qt depending on miles.  Reason being is because I always under fill crankcase by said amount and weeks later bring it up.  As usual Grumps lays out some nice info....appreciate that!  I feel I am probably nearing the line or crossing into the "Normal Operation" we shall see in another 20k?  This puppy is so predictable and reliable can't wait to hammer another 100k on this thing!

So it doesn't actually consume any oil? Cool! 

[mookdoc6]

9 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

So it doesn't actually consume any oil? Cool! 

It does after 10k needs 1/2 qt.  between 6-10k 1/4 qt it uses.  That is expected for my standards........

[Grumpy Bear]

12 hours ago, mookdoc6 said:

It does after 10k needs 1/2 qt.  between 6-10k 1/4 qt it uses.  That is expected for my standards........

When I say Pepper uses no oil I do mean within the context of the 5K OCI's. I hope others understand that.

A pint in what amounts to 7.5 K for your truck is WAY better than many 5.3 owners get. 

[T-Town-Z]

Damn !  I figure I'm better educated in automotive than 99% of the drivers out there,  but the information and knowledge you guys discuss is truly impressive !!!

[mookdoc6]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 4:08 PM, T-Town-Z said:

Damn !  I figure I'm better educated in automotive than 99% of the drivers out there,  but the information and knowledge you guys discuss is truly impressive !!!

It's more desirable to parse the FACTS from conjecture ,urban legend, anecdotal evidence or whatever Billy Bob says with FACTS, PROVEN REPRODUCIBLE DATA/ANALYSIS.  MORE DATA PLEASE!

[diyer2]

Sorry, but I have to add my 2 cents.

 

Do shorter OCI's and save the cost of an oil analysis.

No need for one IMO.

Put that money toward oil changes.

[mookdoc6]

1 hour ago, diyer2 said:

Sorry, but I have to add my 2 cents.

 

Do shorter OCI's and save the cost of an oil analysis.

No need for one IMO.

Put that money toward oil changes.

Sorry,  I will add my 5 cents.

 

This has nothing to do with shorter OCI's Read the original post.