Full Synthetic is NOT 100% Synthetic, it’s a marketing gimmick! Amsoil is real 100% Synthetic motor oil!

KARNUT · October 31, 2019

Humm, I’m confused now. Synthetic good,additives bad?

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Cowpie · October 31, 2019

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Cold start viscosity which matters little to a diesel that is rarely shut off in commercial services such as yours but is huge in a vehicle that sees winter operation and is stored out of doors like some of mine. More so if the majority of the motors trips are quite short such as 10 miles to work, sit eight to twelve and repeat driving. That motor is operation in dry start most of it's life.

Well, to those outside the trucking industry, it seems that these semi engines are rarely shut off. But many municipalities, states, counties of the country will fine a trucker for idling longer than 15 minutes, winter or summer. Rest areas and truck stops included. And the fines can be hefty. Also, many customers demand that trucks not idle at their facility. Also, a heavy diesel uses about 1.5 gallons of fuel per hour in idling. That equates to thousands of dollars of waste in a year. If a truck idled every night for 10 hours (the driver mandated break period by the FMCSA) for about 150 days a year, at the present $3 for fuel that equates to almost $7000 a year is wasted fuel. Good God, I already have to buy about 21,000 gallons of fuel a year as it is, I sure don't need to waste any more in unnecessary idling. And fleets are especially anal about drivers not idling their trucks except in the most extreme of circumstances. That $7000 in wasted fuel is just one truck. What of a fleet with 1000 trucks? So the perception by those outside the trucking arena is very myopic at best.

It is a very small percentage that actually idle their trucks any longer than absolutely necessary. Me for instance, when my truck is not moving or warming up after cold start, it doesn't idle very much. It gets shut down just like anyone with a car or pickup shuts their vehicle off when not using it. My semi sits all night long without idling, even away from the house and not plugged in. In the most extreme of cold conditions (primarily sub zero), I may have it start up every 2 or 3 hours and run for a bit and then shut it off and repeat later. If it's at home, in the coldest weather, it is simply plugged in. And all the while it is sitting out of doors.... 24/7/365.

So motor oil cold flow is as much of an issue with even my semi truck as it is anyone's pickup or car. And when I start it, the oil has to go thru 3 oil filters before getting to the motor. How many cars and pickups have 3 oil filters to pump the cold oil thru on a chilly morning? So my using my heavy diesel as an example yet again is apropos to the discussion on base oils.

And still, at 1,035,601 miles, it uses less oil than many of the pickup trucks on this forum. 1 qt every 11-12,000 miles. So the oil must be doing a pretty good job.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Cowpie

Cowpie · November 1, 2019

I like the additives in the oil I use. Especially the boat load of Molybdenum with a nice dose of Boron to form a great anti friction tag team. And the Calcium/sodium team to keep acids in check. Of course, a healthy measure of zinc/phosphorus. And those little nice things that keep the intervals clean an keep particulates in suspension (one of the weaknesses of a PAO synthetic). All of these little goodies are in the 75% Group III / 25% PAO Group IV I use in my 2500 and Equinox.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Cowpie

Grumpy Bear · November 1, 2019

Additives SUPORT the oils functions. They are not intended to BE the oils functions.

There's this comedian, Jeff Allen that talks about his fathers advice on his wedding day.

"Boy, when you fight with your wife, and you will fight with her, ask yourself two questions before you answer":

"Do you what to be right?"

"OR"

"Do you what to be happy?"

I like happy.

:seeya:

Grumpy Bear · November 1, 2019

On 10/31/2019 at 4:28 PM, KARNUT said:

Humm, I’m confused now. Synthetic good,additives bad?

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No you're not.

KARNUT · November 1, 2019

No you're not.

[emoji14]

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Cowpie · November 1, 2019

38 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Additives SUPORT the oils functions. They are not intended to BE the oils functions.

There's this comedian, Jeff Allen that talks about his fathers advice on his wedding day.

"Boy, when you fight with your wife, and you will fight with her, ask yourself two questions before you answer":

"Do you what to be right?"

"OR"

"Do you what to be happy?"

I like happy.

I would contend the additives do what the oil cannot do. A base oil cannot neutralize acids from combustion. A base oil doesn't naturally keep particulates in suspension. These "functions" are not inherent to any base oil... conventional or synthetic.

Now I suppose it can be argued that, say, Molybdenum compliments a base oil's anti-friction properties. Though it does it in a significantly different way. If one knows how Moly works, they would not confuse what it does compared to a base oil. Moly has properties that no base oil has. It is like spreading a new deck of playing cards across a table and sliding your hand across them. Moly has a plate structure that acts very similar. All the while not building up on the metal surface. The plates slide away thereby preventing friction between to surfaces and they come back again to repeat the process over and over and over. Many quality oils have this mineral additive. Amsoil is one. Schaeffer (I use) has it also. Mobil Delvac like using it also. Pennzoil has a whopping amount in their conventional oils. Boron additive just adds icing to the cake. No base oil can quite accomplish well what these two additives bring to the party, but there is a partnership in that the base oil is the carrier that delivers the Moly and Boron right where it needs to be.

Grumpy Bear · November 2, 2019

Define 'Boat Load"

Source:

Blackstone Labs

on virgin samples

Chart for everyone's convenience

OR

the link below for doubters

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gEMTa3YOBIYBTYiaEhQLfooPohN_l645z1DaWRuFzC0/edit#gid=1618148264

Sodium is a dispersant like calcium and magnesium and the ONLY additive that stands out in Schaeffer.

Problems with sodium are:

1.) It's also an antifreeze additive and it's presence indicates antifreeze in your oil

2.) It hasn't any acid neutral properties.

10 ppm. Boron? 283 ppm Moly? That's the boat load?

Okay, compared to the Universal Averages for Synthetic oils I guess.

Schaeffer 75% of what is oil is Group III and 25% PAO but the can is over 20% additives mostly polymeric thickeners.

Red Line in primarily Polyol Ester secondly PAO and under 10% total additives as it contains nearly no polymeric additives.

Polyol Esters having a very high 'natural' VI and low pour point

Schaeffer is only average.

If you add up the DD package it is 3rd on this list. If you add up the EP package it is 2nd. If you add up lubricity additives it is 3rd.

Mobil 1 Annual Protection? That was just for fun.

We done here yet?

:seeya:

Edited November 2, 2019 by Grumpy Bear
Additional content

flyingfool · November 2, 2019

Redline...wow look at that ZInc and Moly count!!! how will this high % effect my catalytic converter health?

Edited November 2, 2019 by flyingfool

Grumpy Bear · November 2, 2019

2 hours ago, flyingfool said:

Redline...wow look at that ZInc and Moly count!!! how will this high % effect my catalytic converter health?

I've been using it for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles without a single cat issue. This company knows what they are doing. Having said that I've never had a vehicle that use oil so bad I gave it a reason to be an issue. Not an oil I would use in an oil burner anyway, right? You'll be fine.

Grumpy Bear · November 2, 2019

Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater fella's.

If there is one thing Cowpie has proved in spades is that proper use of even a middle of the road oil can give great results. He does things with Schaeffer that beg the question; 'how would I benefit from more'.

Be honest here.

I benefit from this more in pricing. I haven't shopped this silly but I buy my Red Line a buck a quart cheaper than my local Schaeffer dealer is willing to deal. I would expect that Cliff has a similar situation being a bulk buyer where Schaeffer makes more sense for him. That's being honest. It isn't always about the additives or the base oil. Sometimes good enough it GREAT and at a good price too.

It also raises eyebrows and shows marketing at it's worst. We know more about Schaeffer than we ever have and this knowing ask how they can ask for a price that rivals the pricing of Esters? There's a head scratcher.

Okay, no it doesn't. Mobil 1 AP has been getting away with it since the Castrol debacle.

flyingfool · November 2, 2019

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I've been using it for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles without a single cat issue. This company knows what they are doing. Having said that I've never had a vehicle that use oil so bad I gave it a reason to be an issue. Not an oil I would use in an oil burner anyway, right? You'll be fine.

got a favorite online supplier? i'd like to try some ! I usually use VR1 in my bikes,

is this the one ... https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

your recommended Redline part # ????

Edited November 2, 2019 by flyingfool

Cowpie · November 3, 2019

I am confused to some degree. If Ester and PAO base oils are so significant in and of themselves, and there less need for an add pack with them, then why does the Redline have a high level of Moly, Boron, and Zinc/Phosphorus? Why does the Amsoil Signature also have prodigious amounts of additives also? I have been berated here that full synthetics base oils don't need the additives like "substandard" oils do. Did they just throw in a significant ppm of those additives just to get a laugh?

And Group III "faux" synthetic does not necessarily need more polymeric VI improvers than a Group IV PAO or Ester. As per Machinery Lubrication article, Group III base oils are in the running with PAO Group IV. In some ways, better than Group IV PAO.....

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends

And the Gas To Liquid (GTL) base oils made from natural gas (technically a conventional base oil) are already upsetting the apple cart and being able to take on Group IV PAO and Esters in many applications. GTL oils are coming in with NOACK numbers that are lower than Group IV PAO.

My last Schaeffer order, a 12 qt case of full syn 5w30 for my personal vehicles was $76. About $6.30 a quart. Only the bottom end Amsoil OE Group III beats that, but it is also a lower quality oil blend. And even in the PQIA testing, the Schaeffer had better test results than the Amsoil OE. I get my syn blend 10w30 and 15w40 diesel oil for roughly $19 a gallon. So that is about $4.75 a quart. Amsoil doesn't come close in all of its diesel offering for 10w30 and 15w40 HDEO. The Schaeffer pricing I get is right off the normal pricing sheet. The only discount I get is a 3% off for paying by check instead of card. And the pricing I listed for the Schaeffer is the price BEFORE I get the 3% off. To be fair, I order large quantities, so I always get free shipping, but nothing special in pricing. Any order over $375 gets free shipping. That is for anyone, not just some business interest or some goofy "preferred customer" stuff.

That Schaeffer HDEO pricing even beats Walmart pricing for Mobil Delvac Extreme semi syn 10w30.

I haven't ever checked Redline or Royal Purple pricing as I have never been motivated to buy the stuff, but I would be willing to bet that the pricing is higher than the Schaeffer. So how again does the Schaeffer rival the pricing of Esters? Still scratching your head, GB?

I will admit that some online dealers of Schaeffer have almost criminal pricing for the product. But my dealer is a "Red Jacket" rep for Schaeffer (in the top tier of reps) and I get the "real" company pricing list for the product. Anyone selling for higher is a huckster out to screw people out of their money.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Cowpie

Grumpy Bear · November 3, 2019

4 hours ago, flyingfool said:

got a favorite online supplier? i'd like to try some ! I usually use VR1 in my bikes,

is this the one ... https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

your recommended Redline part # ????

Hoerr Racing. https://www.hrpworld.com/ That's one. Red Line Direct is another and I believe Amazon now carries it.

flyingfool · November 3, 2019

50 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Hoerr Racing. https://www.hrpworld.com/ That's one. Red Line Direct is another and I believe Amazon now carries it.

OK i'll try it out! seems it has about 50% the zinc compared to VR1 , but I doubt race oil is OK for the cats and o2 sensors.

https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/18bdee61-0a7e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1