Full Synthetic is NOT 100% Synthetic, it’s a marketing gimmick! Amsoil is real 100% Synthetic motor oil!

[TXGREEK]

Asking which Group V is like asking which Group IV. The point would be pointless as the only ones that know are those that make it and those that for whatever reason have done ion chromatograms. There are a few published if you go looking for them. Shell Advance Ultra, 10W-40 for example is primarily Tetratriacontane C34H70.  A highly refined Group III. Long chain Alkane. Yea...fully synthetic...LOL  Source? Okay: 
 

Characterization of Thermal Stability of Synthetic and
Semi-Synthetic Engine Oils
Anand Kumar Tripathi 1 and Ravikrishnan Vinu

Department of Chemical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology Madras,

 
 
Solubility is about polarity and as stated straight up POA's are highly unipolar. ALL of them. One could use any number of Diesters, Polyol-Esters or PAG's and yes Group III mineral oils and ALL of them have been used successfully and commercially. 
 

TX stated he spoke with AMSOIL direct and was told Group IV and Group V. He wasn't and won't be told exactly which ones. Badgering him won't produce a result you would believe anyway. 

 

Do you know which Group's Schiefer is made from?  Do you have the ion chromatograms?

 

He asked, they answered. Done deal. 

 

Could they have lied? Sure. Marketing is the business of lies artfully told.

So now what shall will we argue about? 

 
 
 

Isn’t it interesting, as are most oil discussions, mine is better than yours blah blah blah. I didn’t start this to claim Amsoil is better because I use it, I‘ve shown proof it’s better based on test results. As of today, results showing Amsoil and Redline far exceed any and all Full synthetic and that for the price, per quart compared to the top of the line (not cheapest) Full Synthetic, Amsoil comes out on top especially beneficial if you do extended oil change intervals.

I’m starting to hear great things about Amsoil XL line too, it’s an added boosted oil for a few dollars cheaper that’s proven to beat Mobil1’s annual protection too. I don’t make the oil or sell it, I just go by what I’m told by the manufacturer and what Blackstone Labs back’s Amsoils claims on engine protection.

Grumpy, you ever think about mixing Amsoil Signature series with Redline? I think Redline is a dollar more than Amsoil?


Sent from Above

[TXGREEK]

All in all, use whatever makes you happy, I’m switching my tires out every 1.5 years just for the sake of safety and reliability which I’ve been doing since I was a teenager. I’ve never once been interested in what he said she said, I’m more interested in the science of oil, and what protection is actually offered during the oil change interval. I used to use Mobil1 Annual protection for years due to its easy over the counter accessibility but then I did a long 5K road trip in my DMax and started to think, was I getting all the protection I could buy and what lab tests would actually show, I’m sure there are great oils out there that’ll just do it for the majority but for me, I’m all about the numbers and as of today and of lab results, Amsoil and Redline are the highest rated protection in the automotive industry!

 

 

Sent from Above

 

 

[TXGREEK]

Here you go, a great video on the manufacturing process of Amsoil, enjoy!

Sent from Above

[Grumpy Bear]

https://www.ilma.org/PDF/ILMANews/2017/AAAreport.pdf

 

Strong glasses and strong coffee required. Pay special attention to page 8 section 2.1 and 2.1.1 continued on page 9. 

 

When  your done reading all 59 pages (and please do) you may consider it less than actually useful as the synthetics they choose to exclude are those that are truly synthetics. As proof the last paragraph of section 2.1 gives a definition of semi synthetic that precludes testing of any oil containing ANY Group IV or Group V base stocks. (Note the difference between the terms base stocks and base oils) 

 

Ergo this highly public AAA test sequence is concerned only with Group II (conventional) and Group III (synthetic). 99.9% of passive readers ASSUMED synthetic meant Group IV (PAO). 

 

In failing to identify the exact brands in consideration of the LARGE overlaps in performance the water is just as muddy as it ever was. Shadowy generalizations are only marginally useful and to this extent: 

 

Esters

POA's

Group III

Group II

 

Is still the pecking order among base stocks. 

[MaverickZ71]

Once again y'all are having a p1ssing contest, trying to show who knows more about oil on here.  Hasn't happened for a couple of weeks, so I guess we were overdue for another battle.  Doing your best to change GM-Trucks.com into BITOG #2.  By the way, Grumpy, is there a subject in the universe that you're not the subject matter expert on?  Asking for a friend.  Endless arguing over what oil is the best and you're a fool of you don't use ABC brand, etc.  But just because some of you are dealers, quit trying to force AMSoil or your brand of choice on the rest of us.  Mobil1 used to be king, not anymore.  Times change.  Shell Rotella Gas Truck is working great for my needs.  Whatever.  Use whatever brand of quality oil and filter that makes you happy and move on.  

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again--the bottom line is ANY quality oil and filter are probably better engineered and have better quality control than most of our GM engines.  (Or probably just any other manufacturer these days.)  Half-baked engineering transferred into the cheapest parts available that are assembled with indifferent tolerances--that does not bode well for Joe Buyer.  You can obsess over AMSoil or Redline or Shaeffer or WalMart synthetic or Pennzoil conventional, but if your engine parts were made/assembled by a disgruntled UAW worker on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon or day before/after a holiday or during a full moon, chances are it'll go BOOM sometime, no matter what you pour in it and when, and there ain't a damned thing we can do about that. . . 

 

Submitted from the bad rings/bad lifters/pitted cam section.  All while using quality oil/filters meeting or exceeding OE specs.  

[TXGREEK]

Once again y'all are having a p1ssing contest, trying to show who knows more about oil on here.  Hasn't happened for a couple of weeks, so I guess we were overdue for another battle.  Doing your best to change GM-Trucks.com into BITOG #2.  By the way, Grumpy, is there a subject in the universe that you're not the subject matter expert on?  Asking for a friend.  Endless arguing over what oil is the best and you're a fool of you don't use ABC brand, etc.  But just because some of you are dealers, quit trying to force AMSoil or your brand of choice on the rest of us.  Mobil1 used to be king, not anymore.  Times change.  Shell Rotella Gas Truck is working great for my needs.  Whatever.  Use whatever brand of quality oil and filter that makes you happy and move on.    

I said it before, and I'll say it again--the bottom line is ANY quality oil and filter are probably better engineered and have better quality control than most of our GM engines.  (Or probably just any other manufacturer these days.)  Half-baked engineering transferred into the cheapest parts available that are assembled with indifferent tolerances--that does not bode well for Joe Buyer.  You can obsess over AMSoil or Redline or Shaeffer or WalMart synthetic or Pennzoil conventional, but if your engine parts were made/assembled by a disgruntled UAW worker on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon or day before/after a holiday or during a full moon, chances are it'll go BOOM sometime, no matter what you pour in it and when, and there ain't a damned thing we can do about that. . . 

 

Submitted from the bad rings/bad lifters/pitted cam section.  All while using quality oil/filters meeting or exceeding OE specs.  

 

 

Lol, no pissing contest going on in here, started the thread for anyone interested in knowing test results based on actual scientific results, not based on what works fine for you or joe blow. If you or anyone enters this thread for sole purpose of starting a pissing contest then I’d ask for you anyone else with that thought in mind to go elsewhere, this is an informative thread based on “SCIENTIFIC RESULTS” and not What works for you or anyone else!

 

I used to buy homes and flip them, the home buyers with obvious experience would always ask what brand paint was used in the remodeling, I later found out why. The higher end paint companies are made with chemicals that prolong the life of the paint where as the cheaper ( example “Behr”) paints get the job done but will need replacement sooner rather than later that you’d get from the high end paint. Moral of the story, you get what you pay for!

 

 

 

 

Sent from Above

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, MaverickZ71 said:

Once again y'all are having a p1ssing contest, trying to show who knows more about oil on here.  Hasn't happened for a couple of weeks, so I guess we were overdue for another battle.  Doing your best to change GM-Trucks.com into BITOG #2.  By the way, Grumpy, is there a subject in the universe that you're not the subject matter expert on?  Asking for a friend.  Endless arguing over what oil is the best and you're a fool of you don't use ABC brand, etc.  But just because some of you are dealers, quit trying to force AMSoil or your brand of choice on the rest of us.  Mobil1 used to be king, not anymore.  Times change.  Shell Rotella Gas Truck is working great for my needs.  Whatever.  Use whatever brand of quality oil and filter that makes you happy and move on.  

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again--the bottom line is ANY quality oil and filter are probably better engineered and have better quality control than most of our GM engines.  (Or probably just any other manufacturer these days.)  Half-baked engineering transferred into the cheapest parts available that are assembled with indifferent tolerances--that does not bode well for Joe Buyer.  You can obsess over AMSoil or Redline or Shaeffer or WalMart synthetic or Pennzoil conventional, but if your engine parts were made/assembled by a disgruntled UAW worker on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon or day before/after a holiday or during a full moon, chances are it'll go BOOM sometime, no matter what you pour in it and when, and there ain't a damned thing we can do about that. . . 

 

Submitted from the bad rings/bad lifters/pitted cam section.  All while using quality oil/filters meeting or exceeding OE specs.  

There are millions of topics I know absolutely nothing about. Hydrocarbons, however, are not among them.

Made it my life's work. 

 

Tell what you know that supports that statement above in red FACTUALLY.

 

Nothing! Probably was sort of a spoiler alert.

 

 

I don't sell anything and I certainly don't promote any brand of oil. I have a preference and have never insisted that mine should be anyone else's. Making your statement in green above a lie. Is it your habit to lie about people you don't know? 

 

I do promote however. I promote knowledge and knowledge used wisely. I promote facts over opinions. I promote rational lucid discussion over hateful self promoting rants. Empirical over the subjective or anecdotal.

 

I supplied my references for each statement from published scholarly journals.

 

Not from advertising. Not from marketing. Not an opinion. I didn't guess.

 

So what exactly is your problem? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TXGREEK]

Ok, I started this thread to give information for those seeking to learn (not to start arguments) something based on real world testing by labs proving the difference and higher benefits of using 100% synthetic versus Full Synthetic.

Lots of scientific studies done, this discussion is based off of real life scientific proof, not he said she said or this works for me and especially not going to brag about the benefits of 100% synthetic versus Full Synthetic, no need to, the lab results prove and make all the difference.

Anyone use the Amsoil XL oil?




Sent from Above

[TXGREEK]

Here are some XL specs:

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g1404.pdf


Sent from Above

[Cowpie]

Those marketing brochures and such that show Brand X is better than all the others is really just marketing.   I never see them show actual used oil samples done over periods of time with several oil changes with each brand in the same engine to actually show if their oil delivers the goods.  

 

But I do know that the factory reman Detroit 60 12.7L in my semi truck does just fine on a synthetic blend of 75% Group II+ and 25% Group IV PAO.  It now has 1.034,729 miles / 22,406 hours on the engine since the reman and it still only uses about 1 qt of oil every 11-12,000 miles and it has about 40 used oil samples over that time and the latest one shows no more wear metals than the early ones.  All the while getting an average 22,500 mile / 450 hour oil changes, which is 50% longer than the OEM recommended interval of 15,000 miles / 300 hours.    The motor is all original as it came remanned from the factory except for the water pump I replaced.   Still original turbo and injectors.  And I use the same brand of oil, only the gas version, in my GM vehicles and other stuff.  I don't use any additional additives to the oil in any of my engines.  No goofy Lucas Oil Snot or anything else.

 

So, some oil company is going to have to show me how their full synthetic whiz bang oil is going to deliver better results than I already have.  How would a full synthetic oil do any better than the syn blend I use now in that Detroit?   How would the motor be in any better shape?   This is why when someone says that Amsoil, Mobil 1, whatever is better than the others, I want to see verified blind study results from actual engines.  Show us multiple comparison oil samples over time for each of the various oils in the comparison study.  Not some "one armed bandit" timken bearing machine crap or some stuff on a glossy brochure making claims with no 3rd party verification.    After several decades of using various oils I am more convinced than ever that the additive package of a motor oil has as much and probably more affect on the quality of an oil and the end results.  And base oils have gotten very close in quality and capability.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Cowpie

[Grumpy Bear]

23 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Those marketing brochures and such that show Brand X is better than all the others is really just marketing.   I never see them show actual used oil samples done over periods of time with several oil changes with each brand in the same engine to actually show if their oil delivers the goods.  

 

But I do know that the factory reman Detroit 60 12.7L in my semi truck does just fine on a synthetic blend of 75% Group II+ and 25% Group IV PAO.  It now has 1.034,729 miles / 22,406 hours on the engine since the reman and it still only uses about 1 qt of oil every 11-12,000 miles and it has about 40 used oil samples over that time and the latest one shows no more wear metals than the early ones.  All the while getting an average 22,500 mile / 450 hour oil changes, which is 50% longer than the OEM recommended interval of 15,000 miles / 300 hours.    The motor is all original as it came remanned from the factory except for the water pump I replaced.   Still original turbo and injectors.  And I use the same brand of oil, only the gas version, in my GM vehicles and other stuff.  I don't use any additional additives to the oil in any of my engines.  No goofy Lucas Oil Snot or anything else.

 

So, some oil company is going to have to show me how their full synthetic whiz bang oil is going to deliver better results than I already have.  How would a full synthetic oil do any better than the syn blend I use now in that Detroit?   How would the motor be in any better shape?   This is why when someone says that Amsoil, Mobil 1, whatever is better than the others, I want to see verified blind study results from actual engines.  Show us multiple comparison oil samples over time for each of the various oils in the comparison study.  Not some "one armed bandit" timken bearing machine crap or some stuff on a glossy brochure making claims with no 3rd party verification.    After several decades of using various oils I am more convinced than ever that the additive package of a motor oil has as much and probably more affect on the quality of an oil and the end results.  And base oils have gotten very close in quality and capability.

Playing the devil here. Your comparing diesel oil to your gas motor oil which you know has a different add package then state you believe the add package is paramount to oil performance sans base oil. Ergo there isn't any basis for comparison. Guess I'm missing the point your trying to make. But I'm sure comparing apple to banana's isn't it. 

 

Further you ask the 'oil company' to better your result which on the surface sound fine until one understands the to hold the oil as the only variable one would have to turn back the clock on your motor and repeat every mile as driven. 

 

Next you insinuate that base oils do not matter? I'd have to know how you define 'quality' me thinks. That's word goes down a rabbit hole in a heartbeat. (Robert Persig ring a bell?) Better. Good. 

 

Don't get me wrong Cliff, I have no more use for the Shell four ball than you do. I think it is a test without practical merit.

 

UOA"s are snapshots in time that provide a wear volume in ppm to a 1K unit OCI. Problem is they do not and can not quantify the total wear nor the rate of wear. They tell no story in and of themselves. Their usefulness is limited to showing an abrupt change of patterns that MAY indicate this or that. You have enough samples to know this first hand. 

 

While we are tossing opinions and first hand experience around I'll offer a few for amusement. 

 

I agree the add pack is important. I disagree that the base oil is so close as to not have an impact. I submit that Joe Average will never own nor operate a machine long enough for any oil debate to matter. I submit that the advantage to one oil over another doesn't come during normal operations but during abnormal conditions. I.E. If cost was of no concern you could run oil without ANY additives if it were changed often enough and operations were within the bounds of it's chemistry. Additives matter when those bounds are exceeded. I submit that additives are finite and are consumed. TBN/TAN matters. I submit that by CG analysis oil changes molecular irreversible changes and the rate and percentage by volume is a huge hallmark of base oil type. I'll stop here. Time for bed. 

 

 

 

[Cowpie]

GB, I did say I use the gasoline version of the same brand of oil.  The add pack is different but the base oil is the same.  I am not comparing diesel to gas, but argument is over base oils in this thread.  And non PAO synthetic base oils deliver the goods.  So much so that it is a hard sell to convince me and others that the only way to experience longevity and reliability in our engines is to use full synthetic.  

 

Base oils do matter, but only in niche applications.  For general usage, modern base oils have come so far as to be almost on par with synthetics.   Take Shell's Gas To Liquid (GTL) base oil made from natural gas which is a Group III.  In some respects, Group III outperforms Group IV PAO. In others, it mirrors Group IV performance.  In some narrow ways, a Group IV will exceed a Group III.  Only in lab results.  As you stated, in the real world it will make little difference.    Likewise, Group II base oils have become almost as good as Group III.  Even group II is clear as water just like Group III and Group IV.    The Group II+ that makes up the bulk of the oil I use is just a notch shy of being a Group III, but that is only in classification not in performance.

 

Hope you got a good rest.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Cowpie

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, Cowpie said:

GB, I did say I use the gasoline version of the same brand of oil.  The add pack is different but the base oil is the same.  I am not comparing diesel to gas, but argument is over base oils in this thread.  And non PAO synthetic base oils deliver the goods.  So much so that it is a hard sell to convince me and others that the only way to experience longevity and reliability in our engines is to use full synthetic.  

 

Base oils do matter, but only in niche applications.  For general usage, modern base oils have come so far as to be almost on par with synthetics.   Take Shell's Gas To Liquid (GTL) base oil made from natural gas which is a Group III.  In some respects, Group III outperforms Group IV PAO. In others, it mirrors Group IV performance.  In some narrow ways, a Group IV will exceed a Group III.  Only in lab results.  As you stated, in the real world it will make little difference.    Likewise, Group II base oils have become almost as good as Group III.  Even group II is clear as water just like Group III and Group IV.    The Group II+ that makes up the bulk of the oil I use is just a notch shy of being a Group III, but that is only in classification not in performance.

 

Hope you got a good rest.

Fighting an infection so didn't sleep well but thanks for the interest Cliff.

 

We agree that for most this whole thing is a waste of time and I think that is were horns rub. Don't you? I mean for a few it does matter. Trouble starts went one group insist the other group bend to their belief. Might as well be talking religion or politics. 

 

You've read my post long enough to know I started a 'hard liner' and morphed into a more pragmatic view. That does not change my basic belief nor the science behind those beliefs. You also know I was a refiner for most of my working life and don't speak from a back of the bottle education. I got plenty of lab time. 

 

It is one thing to reach for the next rung on the ladder and quite another to reach for the other end in one grab. Group II+ I believe is now classified as a 'synthetic' for marketing. Highly hydrogenated. Dewaxed and desulfurized. About as stable as a mineral oil can be. It's lacking is minimized. It's lacking, in major part, being  natural VI which means in practical terms it needs more help in pour point suppression and VI improver chemistry. Bigger part of the 'can' is additives. It needs more help in oxidation resistance. More additives. It is more polar than PAO (totally non-polar) but not nearly so as any ester; the other end of that ladder.  It is way less planar and needs help with lubricity. That...for me...that is a big one. That is allot of chemical help to get it to act as if it were a PAO/Ester blend and they get it done anyway. I will give you that.

 

I suppose if the only argument were engine hour life one could argue that a fella could use Castor Bean oil and get a million miles from it the same as a PAO/Polyol Ester. You would just have to change it more often.

 

I don't argue engine life anymore. Fruitless endeavor. I like what I like for other reasons. Such as I can actually measure a useable difference in lubricity and thermal conductivity. More so in air cooled equipment where the cooling system isn't masking the difference.  Esters affinity from ferrous metals make my day during long term storage. I have a small collection.

 

Cold start viscosity which matters little to a diesel that is rarely shut off in commercial services such as yours but is huge in a vehicle that sees winter operation and is stored out of doors like some of mine. More so if the majority of the motors trips are quite short such as 10 miles to work, sit eight to twelve and repeat driving. That motor is operation in dry start most of it's life. 

 

You can look at the data sheets or you can take a quart of each and place them in a freezer at -35 F overnight then try to pour both. You won't need a data sheet to understand want the results mean to the pump and bearings. 

 

I recently saw this between Red Line and a very well known and respected brand X full synthetic . The former a PAO/Polyol Ester the latter a PAO/Group III. Brand X pours like spoiled chunky milk. Red Line like honey on a warm day. 

 

Anyway.....glad you have your requirements well in hand. I need another nap. 

 

Thanks for indulging me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Grumpy Bear

[Bob2C]

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

It's lacking, in major part, being  natural VI; which means in practical terms it needs more help in pour point suppression and VI improver chemistry. Bigger part of the 'can' is additives.

Yes, you can do ALMOST anything with additives (chemistry).

Go ahead, lubricate with additives. Knock yourselves out.