How well are these truck tires balanced at the factory?

Wheelguy · September 19, 2019

22 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

0.3 - .04 mm lateral and radial wheel runout IMHO is WAY to much. You could hit that spec with a wood lathe gouge. Really ten to fifteen thousands?

Just an after thought.

Radial runout of 0.3mm max is pretty much standard for all wheel manufacturing that I've seen & it's been that way for decades. That's not to say that the wheel manufacturers target that number - they target much lower such that the average wheel that is shipped out never sees close to that number. But there are some that get higher than the targeted average - just like there are some imperfect tires (well, let's be honest - they're all imperfect to one degree or another) - manufacturing doesn't allow for perfection - never will. If that were the case, blueprints would never have tolerances. Each and every machine used in a wheel's manufacturing process allows for error - it's built that way - only so accurate and only so repeatable. Now, could we build a machine that has no error and has better repeatability? More than likely. Just how much more expensive would that machine be? No clue. Will it be economical for a wheel maker to purchase a machine like that (is it going to equate to saving money or garnishing more business)? Probably not in the long run. No different than repairing a wheel is it? LOL You're accepting a lesser quality that's meeting a standard that's unknown to the consumer (or the vast majority of consumers). You may feel it's way too much but you've been balancing them out for years without the need for RFB, so what's the issue with the max runout specs?

In regards to the wheel repair, I thought we were moving on from that? It's back now? OK. Maybe I muddled the point(s) a bit. I never had an issue with only sample size. It was the claim the wheels were passing the same OEM standards to which they were made & it wasn't true, only in part. My point was that a single wheel design (meaning face design) must be tested to OEM specs (not SAE) in order for the buyer to accept the design (GM for example). Each and every time the wheel design changes, the wheel undergoes the same battery of testing - a non-damaged wheel has to go through this. The reason for this is because each and every wheel behaves differently under the exact same test conditions (other than load which can vary due to the application changing - car, CUV, SUV, truck all have varying weights that affect test loading). Now enter the damage & repair. The previous repair service you referenced said they tested 7 wheels to prove their repair process for every wheel design - that's not what OEM does. There's a bit of pulling the wool over the customer's eyes with their statement that the wheels meet the same OEM specs. That's all I was really implying - and in order to make that statement true, they'd have to test 7 wheels of EVERY design before repairing them for customers in order to validate their claim. Impossible? No. Would it take a lot of time & effort? Yes. Like I also stated above - not every repair is as risky. The repair location matters and the severity of the damage matters. A straightening may not need that same battery of testing but a structural repair should be put under a bit more scrutiny wouldn't you think? What's interesting about the lack of testing each wheel design is it's also a cutting of corners - they're not doing it because it wouldn't be cheap (same reason OEM aren't requiring wheels with 0.15mm runout - not cheap).

I can't read the SAE paper without buying it so how am I to know what it says? It's a technical paper (reporting results) and not really a spec. Also dated 5 years after I left the wheel industry, so some things changed (now think of your stance with RFB). Does that mean it's to be accepted without question or that it has made anything better or is it just allowing more "junk" on the roads? Just like you with RFB, I'm not going to take a report on wheel repair as being good enough for me given what I know about wheels.

In regards to producing wheels with set "lattice" to the microstructure, that can be done but is a more specialized process called roll forming or spun wheels. That I'm aware, this is typically only done on the rim area & forces the microstructure to follow the rim profile a bit more closely - the resulting grains are much tighter together & results in a stronger rim without adding mass. The original intent was to be able to thin out the rim area but subsequent pot hole tests had too many varying results for the intent to be fully realized - it did, however, change the behavior of a non-thinned rim in a favorable manner so it's still being marketed & accepted positively. My opinion on the matter is it's a marginal improvement over just plain gravity casting. Some other similar schticks would be using virgin ingot - some car makers feel that improves the strength/durability - meh - kind of gimmicky to me but doesn't have the potential to have an adverse negative effect on performance.

The mass production of products is the main reason the tolerances are what they are - the more pieces being produced, the less likely you are to have all perfect products (the change for deviation from target dimension increases). The processes are monitored, checked, then the results are plugged into statistical analysis software which points the manufacturer in the direction they should go for getting the greatest number of "passing" wheels. It's not a perfect process but is about as good as it can get given with which the numbers a manufacturer has to deal. If they wish to monitor things more closely, that causes the costs to go up & the customers (car makers) aren't going to pay more money for a marginally better wheel. By marginally better I am referring to lessening the pile of wheels with noticeable issues - the pile will get smaller but not to the extent that the money spent to get there was money well spent. If you & I were going to make 100 wheels, we could probably control those 100 wheels (fewer numbers, easier to monitor & can spend more time babysitting) to a higher standard to the point they were better than an average OEM wheel. Unfortunately that just doesn't work when the numbers increase to those levels that a plant is spitting out every shift.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Wheelguy

pjd · September 19, 2019

Took the truck in yesterday. Waited 3 hours then shop manager told me they are road force balancing and it will take the rest of the day and maybe most of today. He said the techs take the measurements and send them to GM. They wait for return info and go from there. Manager said either the process will work or they will put on new tires but they have to check with GM. I guess checking with gm is for warranty purposes. As I write this it is 11:30 am my time. No word yet from dealer. On and yes, I have a rental car, paid for by GM\Chevy

dctackett10 · September 20, 2019

What does the term wheel run out mean?

I just bought 4 295/70/18 master craft mxt tires. Had them put on Wednesday and notice when I get pass 55 it rides like crap! Soo much shaking and vibration. I feel some in the steering wheel but most of it at my butt on the seat lol. I’m taking them to have them road forced balance with a shop 2 hours away with a hunter road force balance machine. Hope this helps! I have the worst luck with tires if you read my comments on the user with 35 inch tires thread lol.

Anybody uave ave any feedback I can try or use

Thomcat · September 21, 2019

On 9/19/2019 at 2:23 PM, pjd said:

Took the truck in yesterday. Waited 3 hours then shop manager told me they are road force balancing and it will take the rest of the day and maybe most of today. He said the techs take the measurements and send them to GM. They wait for return info and go from there. Manager said either the process will work or they will put on new tires but they have to check with GM. I guess checking with gm is for warranty purposes. As I write this it is 11:30 am my time. No word yet from dealer. On and yes, I have a rental car, paid for by GM\Chevy

I wish you good luck.

Evidently my tires walked the rim during break-in. Watched my dealer do the rfb. Two techs removed the heavy 22" wheels, dismount 4 tires from wheel to check runout (which was OK, reinflate and throw on the Hunter rfb machine, dismount the rears again for whatever reason, added weights as necessary, realign tires and throw back on the machine, remount on truck, check air and ready to roll in under 2-1/2 hours. Didn't see the mechanic call GM, maybe when I was getting another coffee and donut. Counted it as my first free wheel balance., no more rear axle hop or up/down vibration centering around 65 mph all but gone.

All day to rfb??? I must have a better dealer, in fact I know I have a great one! Took the Traverse in yesterday for replacement of a harness to cure the dreaded "Shift to Park" message while in gear that prevents push button shutdown. Pulled into the bay and threw in Park and something in the gearshift fell apart and engine wouldn't shut down. Dealer's mechanic examined and a POS snap together switch on the shift lever fell apart and of course it's not replaceable as a unit, plus the part is on backorder and GM is on strike. Mechanic took the time to reassemble the switch contacts and epoxy the case together, better than new, on the dealer's dime to get me going in my own car in the interim until the new part arrived for warranty replacement. Most other dealers would have said tough luck, wait for the part, pulled the battery cable to shutdown the motor and stored my car in his lot for whoever knows how long to act as a target for door chips, bumper dings and bird crap while I stuffed my a$$ into and drove around in an Equinox LS.

pjd · September 21, 2019

Picked up the truck. New tires and balance and road something and pico. No more shaking YAY.

Thomcat · September 21, 2019

17 hours ago, pjd said:

Picked up the truck. New tires and balance and road something and pico. No more shaking YAY.

Bottom line is that however long it took - it was worth the wait.

Cpl_Punishment · September 22, 2019

On 9/20/2019 at 3:52 PM, dctackett10 said:

What does the term wheel run out mean?

I just bought 4 295/70/18 master craft mxt tires. Had them put on Wednesday and notice when I get pass 55 it rides like crap! Soo much shaking and vibration. I feel some in the steering wheel but most of it at my butt on the seat lol. I’m taking them to have them road forced balance with a shop 2 hours away with a hunter road force balance machine. Hope this helps! I have the worst luck with tires if you read my comments on the user with 35 inch tires thread lol.

Anybody uave ave any feedback I can try or use

Are you sure the shop put the wheels on correctly? I had this exact same issue on my car after the stealership rotated my tires. My assumption was they didn't tighten the lug nuts in a cross pattern. I took the tires off and put them back on correctly and the problem went away.

dctackett10 · September 22, 2019

4 hours ago, Cpl_Punishment said:

Are you sure the shop put the wheels on correctly? I had this exact same issue on my car after the stealership rotated my tires. My assumption was they didn't tighten the lug nuts in a cross pattern. I took the tires off and put them back on correctly and the problem went away.

Honesty. I haven’t tried that. Can’t hurt to try though