How well are these truck tires balanced at the factory?

[Jsdirt]

Well said, Grumpy.

[oldmann]

On 8/1/2019 at 6:02 PM, Sin City Trail Boss said:

Thought about that, but if I take it to dealer they'll do a regular balance. I'd prefer road force.

You'll be hard pressed to find a dealer without a RF machine.

[Grumpy Bear]

14 hours ago, Bgctrading said:

I have been in the tire business myself for 20 years. My grandpa started it in1963. I have found a "few" tires that road forcing helps. But replacing the tire solved the problem as well. We only road force a set if the vehicle comes back with a problem. Road force is not accurate unless the vehicle has been driven and the tires have settled in. I will say that 90 percent of the tires I have a had a road force issue with are Goodyear and bfg Kos and ko2s.

It's only as hard as you make it.  

 

[Wheelguy]

4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Sort of makes its own point. Before 'Road Force' it was "Match Balance". Before "Spin Balance" it was "Bubble Balance" and before that it was a "Gravity Balance".  Technology will continue to improve that is an undeniable fact. And as technology moves forward solving problems, the problems increase at the same rate. I.E. Because I can balance a tire that is poorly made I no longer need to make a well made tire. I can make it cheaper and charge more for the marketing. 

 

If the tire is truly well designed and made it will be as equally stiff as it need be to give very acceptable service. Ditto rims. Both will be round and free of lateral displacement. In a wheel you call that bent.. In a tire you call that trashed or perhaps mis-mounted. 

 

A really good balance doesn't start with the most sophisticated technology, it starts with a good inspection and selection of your major components.

 

If they built a square tire you could balance it but you couldn't drive on it and the best and newest tech wouldn't change that fact so what we are really dealing with is matters of degree. How sloppy can I be in manufacturing and get by with it. (Six Sigma). 

 

You can match balance with a gravity balance. You can shave a marginally out of round tire. Staigthen a bend rim. All this takes time and patients. People have neither these days as both waste money and money....well....that is the root of it, isn't it?

 

If one did as they ought then he would be called a Craftsman but somehow people take more pride in being a Technician.

 

Brain Wash 

 

Tech's need a fraction of the training and/or talent and they certainly don't have to care. They have a machine and a boss to tell them 'close enough' and service techs telling customers "that's normal'. (bet that ruffels some feathers). 

 

 

 

Disclaimer. This is not a debate, these are the facts. Oh, and YES that information was very useful. Thanks!!

 

 

Never said it was a magic wand - just another tool to possibly help find issues which may not be found with regular balancing.  You pretty much just expanded on what I stated near the end of my 1st & most of the 2nd full paragraphs, so thanks for that reiteration and overstating most of the obvious (to those that understand wheel & tire assembly/manufacturing and their limitations), I guess? 

 

Time & money, you got it.  Automakers (and tire makers) don't want their scrap piles (like you had) piling up too much.  Not really sure what you're attempting to debate or state as fact, but whatever, no skin off my back.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Wheelguy

[Grumpy Bear]

14 hours ago, Wheelguy said:

Road force takes into account the stiffness of the tires all around as well as lateral runout of the entire assembly with a load applied, something static & dynamic balancing doesn’t measure & is harder to correct using only those methods. Also, there’s a much wider use of tires with lower aspect ratios in recent decades (larger wheels) & a road force machine makes it easier to balance those types of tires since they’re typically stiffer & more sensitive to vibration.  None of that implies that static & dynamic balancing isn’t effective, road force just measures in a more sophisticated manner and puts more emphasis on how each tire behaves when mounted, under load & rotating at high speeds. Auto makers have found those things need to be taken into consideration when trying to make & sell a better vehicle or get one up over the competition.

You mean this one? Well your presentation says we need road force balancing because manufactures make junk and seemingly always have. Ergo you MUST accept this state of things. 

 

I say, you don't have to accept anything. You can choose to reject the tire. That puts pressure on to make a better product. It's called an economic vote. 

 

Here's the problem with your method. You might well indeed beat this tire into submission and MAKE it act normal but what you  really have is a tire that shouldn't be in-service to begin with. IT'S FLAWED thus DANGEROUS. 

 

You also submit that it makes a "better vehicle". Really!!

 

That is, you believe it is better somehow to create junk and crutch it into the ILLUSION of better instead of just making a good product to begin with? IT"S FLAWED AND DANGEROUS!! 

 

Illusions by definition are not reality. Things unreal have no basis for "better". 

 

I don't do irrational discussion.  

[Wheelguy]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You mean this one? Well your presentation says we need road force balancing because manufactures make junk and seemingly always have. Ergo you MUST accept this state of things. 

 

I say, you don't have to accept anything. You can choose to reject the tire. That puts pressure on to make a better product. It's called an economic vote. 

 

Here's the problem with your method. You might well indeed beat this tire into submission and MAKE it act normal but what you  really have is a tire that shouldn't be in-service to begin with. IT'S FLAWED thus DANGEROUS. 

 

You also submit that it makes a "better vehicle". Really!!

 

That is, you believe it is better somehow to create junk and crutch it into the ILLUSION of better instead of just making a good product to begin with? IT"S FLAWED AND DANGEROUS!! 

 

Illusions by definition are not reality. Things unreal have no basis for "better". 

 

I don't do irrational discussion.  

That is literally not what I posted at all.    Please show me where I specifically used those phrases in that exact context.  You may have drawn the conclusion(s) that I was somehow trying to imply those ideas you spew in your last post above, but me stating it - that's simply not the case at all.

 

I never used the words "we need" anything nor did I imply that using this method makes a "better vehicle". I simply stated that was WHY AUTOMAKERS use it and THEIR intent behind using it.  Far from me stating we need it or that it definitively builds a better vehicle.  I never stated my beliefs at all concerning the subject from my second post in this thread down to this one so wrong again on that account but please continue debating information I posted.  The depths of your delusions just keep growing with each little bold quote of wisdom you place near the end - that's to what I look forward the most now.

 

Apparently you prefer irrational conclusions, one-sided opinions and misquoting rather than what most people might consider discussions, but that's still no skin off my back. Have fun telling everyone how it is. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Wheelguy

[Grumpy Bear]

 So the direct cut an paste of the paragraph you directed me to and from your post isn't your post?

 

Sure it is. Okay. Then reread your first two sentences really slow into a mirror and ask yourself it your 'quoting' a statement from some manufacture or magazine or 'making it your own'? The fact you agree at all with the industry is your implication. The fact that if not your own you fail to quote your source. Thus taking credit for a work not your own. Lord man, English isn't this hard. Read again. YOU are making those statements and now you're crawfishing. 

 

 

 

[Bgctrading]

We generally use road force to find which tire to replace instead of swapping the whole set. Rarely do we spin them to "hide"(fix) the problem. Sometimes we will if the tires is worn down a fair amount and it cannot be warrantied with a free replacement.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Bgctrading

[Thomcat]

I guess I'll find out how good this road force balancing is on 22" low profiles.. dealer's scheduled mine for Thurs, the earliest time the machine and tech are available....no test ride, took my word based on description........regardless, the balance and alignment services are offered under the warranty for the first 12K miles.

 

Seems to me to be a balance problem....pretty specific up/down pulsing vibration on the front axle starts at 62 worst at 65 and disappears at 68+ regardless of road surface, moderate on asphalt, worse on concrete ........definitely speed related same results in 8th as in 6th gear, same whether 2WD, AWD or 4WD. I had marked the tires to the rims when new and at 1500 miles one of the fronts has apparently walked a few inches on the rim, probably all that playing on hairpin turns and braking in sport mode.

 

Anxious to see how it's done, dealer has a corridor the length of the service bays with portals so you can watch the tech work on your vehicle without technically being in the work area where customers are not permitted unless accompanied by the service rep.

[Wheelguy]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 So the direct cut an paste of the paragraph you directed me to and from your post isn't your post?

 

Sure it is. Okay. Then reread your first two sentences really slow into a mirror and ask yourself it your 'quoting' a statement from some manufacture or magazine or 'making it your own'? The fact you agree at all with the industry is your implication. The fact that if not your own you fail to quote your source. Thus taking credit for a work not your own. Lord man, English isn't this hard. Read again. YOU are making those statements and now you're crawfishing. 

 

 

 

Really?  Good God, you simply cannot read or need your eyes checked. Probably both.

 

I was referring to the things YOU TYPED IN SUMMARY below what you quoted from me. Please, try to follow - it’s much simpler than trying to support your opinion with more lies (or are you one of those alternative truth people)..

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You mean this one? Well your presentation says we need road force balancing because manufactures make junk and seemingly always have.

Never specifically said that part quoted above  - your "summary" in bold are not my words. I did not post that anyone needed anything. I posted reasons why automakers started using road force. Just like when a person knows the reason why something happens & explains the reasons - that doesn’t mean they agree with it. Do you even understand a concept like that or were all your teachers suddenly Nazis when they taught you about WW2 , if you were in school for that long?  Evidently you also weren’t paying much attention when reading comprehension was being taught. More than likely you were telling everyone how it is.

 

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You also submit that it makes a "better vehicle"

 

That is, you believe it is better somehow to create junk and crutch it into the ILLUSION of better instead of just making a good product to begin with?

Yet again, the same as above - your summary is not accurate. I didn’t say that anything makes a better vehicle. I again gave reasons why the automakers adopted a practice.

 

...and the lies continue from you.

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

The fact you agree at all with the industry is your implication.

I never used the word agree - again, that is your misunderstanding and yet another non-fact of your own doing. A person explaining reasons for things happening is not by any stretch of a logical person’s imagination an implication of agreement.

 

 and finally...the best lie....

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I don't do irrational discussion.

Sure you don’t, that’s one reason why you continue to spew your rhetoric & respond. Yes, I’m fishing - and evidently the idiots are feeling like biting. So simple to rattle a cage like yours.

 

No, I don’t need to provide sources. 20+ years testing & designing & engineering wheels for a multitude of vehicle manufacturers such as GM should speak for itself to a normal person that can stop speaking & making up stories long enough to listen. But wait.....Where are your sources concerning danger & what should or shouldn’t be put into service?  Based on your prior examples, I can simply claim that because I have done something for 50 years and never done something else then it’s not necessary & brainwashing & (my personal favorite) DANGEROUS. Yes, DANGEROUS. The auto industry is going to risk literally billions of dollars from potential lawsuits implementing measuring equipment that results in something unsafe. Makes complete sense!

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

All this takes time and patients

Also, don’t offer advice about the English language, m’kay?  Patients go see doctors. Patience is that supposedly virtuous quality. (Just so your obviously feeble mind can understand it - that doesn’t mean I agree with it).

 

Keep pounding that chest Marty, your obvious misunderstandings and piss poor skills at comprehending simple reading just keep shining through.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Wheelguy

[Jsdirt]

Jesus, Wheelguy - try whiskey. Or Valium. Or BOTH! 

 

I get what he's saying, because it's true. Tires are being built by the lowest bidder, which modern auto manufacturers all use these days, so the only way to correct these half-assed constructed tires is to road force balance them. It's a solution to a problem that didn't exist back in the days when people running manufacturing still had morals and ethics, and put customer service and quality above cash flow.

 

The crap I see on a daily basis never ceases to amaze me. Crap metals, over-engineered electronics, bad brand new parts right out of the box ... My grandfather must be rolling in his grave right now. 

[tbarn]

6 minutes ago, Jsdirt said:

Jesus, Wheelguy - try whiskey. Or Valium. Or BOTH! 

 

I get what he's saying, because it's true. Tires are being built by the lowest bidder, which modern auto manufacturers all use these days, so the only way to correct these half-assed constructed tires is to road force balance them. It's a solution to a problem that didn't exist back in the days when people running manufacturing still had morals and ethics, and put customer service and quality above cash flow.

 

The crap I see on a daily basis never ceases to amaze me. Crap metals, over-engineered electronics, bad brand new parts right out of the box ... My grandfather must be rolling in his grave right now. 

Back in the day, cars/trucks had heavy thick frames. Heavy control arms. Heavy springs. Taller sidewalls etc. That would disguise many a vibration. Just sayin'.

[tbarn]

For those who may care.

https://gm-techlink.com/?p=7276

[Jsdirt]

6 minutes ago, tbarn said:

Back in the day, cars/trucks had heavy thick frames. Heavy control arms. Heavy springs. Taller sidewalls etc. That would disguise many a vibration. Just sayin'.

There was nothing to disguise, because they built them RIGHT.

 

Whenever a wheel bearing or u-joint failed 200k miles down the road, trust me - you'd feel it.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Jsdirt

[Wheelguy]

1 hour ago, Jsdirt said:

Jesus, Wheelguy - try whiskey. Or Valium. Or BOTH! 

 

I get what he's saying, because it's true. Tires are being built by the lowest bidder, which modern auto manufacturers all use these days, so the only way to correct these half-assed constructed tires is to road force balance them. It's a solution to a problem that didn't exist back in the days when people running manufacturing still had morals and ethics, and put customer service and quality above cash flow.

 

The crap I see on a daily basis never ceases to amaze me. Crap metals, over-engineered electronics, bad brand new parts right out of the box ... My grandfather must be rolling in his grave right now. 

Dude, I would but I’ve got to get up & go to work & show show a guy in India how to design some exhaust components slated to be tooled in a remote backyard garage in a jungle area of China & mass produced somewhere on cartel land in Mexico.

 

I get that part & agreed with the time & money point. Not going to quote it - too tired of it already so hope you understand. The rest of it after that point in time got way out of hand. Sorry for derailing the topic to that extent - just not a fan of having words put into my mouth. Done.

 

Some of this is I’m sure is already obvious to you & others but not everyone knows these backroom dirty secrets, for lack of better words, that the average owner doesn’t know or even consider.

 

Sure, quality has gone downhill  Some of it due to exactly what you mentioned about lowest bidder. Some of it also due to the increase in size of wheels in regards to vibration issues/causes. Some of it is due to increased sales volumes, demands or forecasts (population isn’t decreasing).

 

Car makers feel the big wheels sell some extra vehicles so to keep the cars rolling out the door, they have to award the suppling to cheaper makers or the price of the vehicles go up. Back in the day there weren’t 22" stock wheels & tires on non-commercial vehicles. 13-15" were pretty typical & that I can recall, the 17"+ didn’t really catch on until around the turn of the century (at least in a stock part sense). I can’t speak for much of the tire making process, but making larger diameter & width wheels isn’t easy using traditional horizontal lathes. Vertical lathes came about but for whatever reason were quite expensive. Molding larger tires more than likely came with consequences as well. Money, money, money. I guess it’s easier & cheaper to cut the corners. The bailout (for GM) didn’t help things either - they pay fines for not meeting the emissions & fuel economy demands so for them, trucks & SUVs their money makers at that time, took a profit margin hit.

 

Not saying I agree with all of it - for me, it is what it is I guess. It’s an ugly process, I know. For me, it beats walking to work.....both ways.......uphill.......through the snow.....LOL

Edited September 10, 2019 by Wheelguy