Motor Trend Reviews the WT

the wanderer · March 26, 2019

14 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

How is it a guy who can code went straight to stupid. You're saying I don't have the ability to code? Why would you assume that?

That be as is may, it wasn't the point and I'm pretty sure you understand that...or maybe not. The exchange was about ABILITY not ones current state of knowledge. Don't be one of those guys who confuses Education with Intelligence. I gave the guy more credit for his intelligence than he gave himself. He didn't complain....what's your dog in the fight?

https://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/24/15-famous-thinkers-who-couldnt-spell/

Review the list and try again. By your standard none of these peoples works have merit.

Speaking of stupid; what in the world makes you think I'm comparing education vs intelligence? You're way out in the weeds here.

What I'm trying to tell you, is that people have different skills and abilities, and it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people prefer to read and view expert opinions by people who know, rather than try to read a tech paper and muddle through it (poorly) themselves. That preference can be based on several reasons, one of them simply being, not having the ability to digest all that information.

I brought up coding as an extreme example to illustrate my point; my skills and education is in computer science, there is a very high chance that yours isn't. So you pay experts me like to write your software for you, build your computers and fix them etc., and I pay (indirectly) experts to study and test/compare a bunch of trucks I'm interested in.

Specialization, it's a thing.

Grumpy Bear · March 26, 2019

14 minutes ago, the wanderer said:

Speaking of stupid; what in the world makes you think I'm comparing education vs intelligence? You're way out in the weeds here.

What I'm trying to tell you, is that people have different skills and abilities, and it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people prefer to read and view expert opinions by people who know, rather than try to read a tech paper and muddle through it (poorly) themselves. That preference can be based on several reasons, one of them simply being, not having the ability to digest all that information.

I brought up coding as an extreme example to illustrate my point; my skills and education is in computer science, there is a very high chance that yours isn't. So you pay experts me like to write your software for you, build your computers and fix them etc., and I pay (indirectly) experts to study and test/compare a bunch of trucks I'm interested in.

Specialization, it's a thing.

Your point was not lost on me. Mine has been lost on everyone.

If a chicken can learn to play a tune. The difference between skill and ability is education. A monkey can be taught sign language. Intelligence is the SPEED one learns or solves problems at with which he is familiar. Education is familuarization. Skill is honed education. All but the truly mentally impaired can learn anything they wish to and be as skilled at it as their drive and patients will take them.

My issue with this tread is people accepting someone as an expert when they haven't enough rudimentary knowledge in that field themselves to even know what an expert might look like. Then bowing to them as if they were gods. A sheepskin on a wall does not guarantee proficiency. You want a brain surgeon that is a first year resident and you're his first patient or the guy with a track record of 1,000 wins, no losses removing your tumor? A popular blog???

My issue is people arguing to the death things they take someone's word for that they are to lazy to even look into. Looks good, must be right? How did that work out for Eve talking to the snake and that girl was perfect in mind and unfettered in ability. She sill got deceived. Reading a forum or a blog of individuals who are expert because they are popular or because they say so will never make anyone knowledgeable enough to have an argument over anything INTELLEGNETLY. Anyone who buys a tire because 10,000 consumers gave it five starts is an idiot. Ever hear of the hundredth monkey?

I never made SAE, ASTM, Doctoral thesis or White papers versus blogs, YouTube and personal experiences an either or thing. You all did that in a massive group assumption. What I did was offer the idea that they (these other tools) and a cuppa coffee might shed light on some dumb idea that has gained popular traction.

My issue is, that EVERYONE has the ability that is of reasonably sound mind. That there is a difference between an OPINION and a BIAS and that a roomful of snowflakes can't get past themselves to grasp the difference but are content to create a blizzard.

There is a difference between CAN'T and just DON'T WANT TO. If you don't want to...fine....but if that is your choice then don't scream FOUL when your error is pointed out.

Everything I know started AS ignorance. Everything I've become good at came at the expense of time, effort and dogged determination. Every ignorance I overcame started with the realization I was ignorant and WRONG. You can't learn anything without enough humility to listen open mindedly, honest enough to KNOW your wrong and hungry enough to demand that void be filled.

KARNUT · March 26, 2019

Then you throw in that people see and experience things differently. I know a girl who drove a pinto for 10 years love the thing. Has been looking for a clean one to buy, what are the odds. I can say how much I enjoy all the Chevys I owned. My favorite is the old truck I have now. If I mentioned how much luck we had with Hyundai, I’m a traitor. I read all the reviews when I’m ready to buy. I go to car lots and drive a two or three year old one to see how they hold up. It’s amazing how a mag review can rag on something that doesn’t bother me at all. One of the things that vehicle are reviewed hard on is the information center. I have zero interest in that. Car play big deal, it’s a distraction. My phone Bluetooth I’m good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

the wanderer · March 26, 2019

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Your point was not lost on me. Mine has been lost on everyone.

If a chicken can learn to play a tune. The difference between skill and ability is education. A monkey can be taught sign language. Intelligence is the SPEED one learns or solves problems at with which he is familiar. Education is familuarization. Skill is honed education. All but the truly mentally impaired can learn anything they wish to and be as skilled at it as their drive and patients will take them.

My issue with this tread is people accepting someone as an expert when they haven't enough rudimentary knowledge in that field themselves to even know what an expert might look like. Then bowing to them as if they were gods. A sheepskin on a wall does not guarantee proficiency. You want a brain surgeon that is a first year resident and you're his first patient or the guy with a track record of 1,000 wins, no losses removing your tumor? A popular blog???

My issue is people arguing to the death things they take someone's word for that they are to lazy to even look into. Looks good, must be right? How did that work out for Eve talking to the snake and that girl was perfect in mind and unfettered in ability. She sill got deceived. Reading a forum or a blog of individuals who are expert because they are popular or because they say so will never make anyone knowledgeable enough to have an argument over anything INTELLEGNETLY. Anyone who buys a tire because 10,000 consumers gave it five starts is an idiot. Ever hear of the hundredth monkey?

I never made SAE, ASTM, Doctoral thesis or White papers versus blogs, YouTube and personal experiences an either or thing. You all did that in a massive group assumption. What I did was offer the idea that they (these other tools) and a cuppa coffee might shed light on some dumb idea that has gained popular traction.

My issue is, that EVERYONE has the ability that is of reasonably sound mind. That there is a difference between an OPINION and a BIAS and that a roomful of snowflakes can't get past themselves to grasp the difference but are content to create a blizzard.

There is a difference between CAN'T and just DON'T WANT TO. If you don't want to...fine....but if that is your choice then don't scream FOUL when your error is pointed out.

Everything I know started AS ignorance. Everything I've become good at came at the expense of time, effort and dogged determination. Every ignorance I overcame started with the realization I was ignorant and WRONG. You can't learn anything without enough humility to listen open mindedly, honest enough to KNOW your wrong and hungry enough to demand that void be filled.

I get your point about too many fake reviewers, I really do. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are a number of high quality reviewers as well.

At the end of the day, specs and papers are meaningless to me. They really are. You can read all the tech papers you want, but the proof is in the pudding. How does it actually drive. Case in point, TFL Truck did a comparison on youtube with the big three 1 ton trucks. The chevy had the lowest tow rating and engine torque, so they used a trailer set to the Chevy's max, then drove the 3 trucks with the same trailer, up the Eisenhower Tunnel and back down again. This is a strenuous test, it takes about 8 mins one way at highway speeds, uphill the whole way at a good slope. Guess which truck performed best, and was the most stable ride? The chevy. The specs would have you believe the Ford or Ram should have won, but when they actually drove all 3, the result proved otherwise.

Another example; the ram 1500 v8 is supposed to get like 21 MPG hyw or something like that; they (TFL Truck) tested it several times (rebel) and got around 17 or so.

Third example; the chevy 2.7 turbo is supposed to get 22 or 23 MPG hyw, TFL tested it (exact same loop as they always use) and got 25 MPG.

That's real world testing. That means more to me then all the specs and details you can possibly find in some tech paper.

At the end of the day, you and I will not agree because we value different approaches. I'm just saying you should not discard a youtube review simply because it's not a tech paper. There is very high quality content there, and it's not that hard to figure out which sources are good and which are blowing hot air in an echo chamber.

Grumpy Bear · March 26, 2019

4 hours ago, the wanderer said:

I get your point about too many fake reviewers, I really do. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there are a number of high quality reviewers as well.

At the end of the day, specs and papers are meaningless to me. They really are. You can read all the tech papers you want, but the proof is in the pudding. How does it actually drive. Case in point, TFL Truck did a comparison on youtube with the big three 1 ton trucks. The chevy had the lowest tow rating and engine torque, so they used a trailer set to the Chevy's max, then drove the 3 trucks with the same trailer, up the Eisenhower Tunnel and back down again. This is a strenuous test, it takes about 8 mins one way at highway speeds, uphill the whole way at a good slope. Guess which truck performed best, and was the most stable ride? The chevy. The specs would have you believe the Ford or Ram should have won, but when they actually drove all 3, the result proved otherwise.

Another example; the ram 1500 v8 is supposed to get like 21 MPG hyw or something like that; they (TFL Truck) tested it several times (rebel) and got around 17 or so.

Third example; the chevy 2.7 turbo is supposed to get 22 or 23 MPG hyw, TFL tested it (exact same loop as they always use) and got 25 MPG.

That's real world testing. That means more to me then all the specs and details you can possibly find in some tech paper.

At the end of the day, you and I will not agree because we value different approaches. I'm just saying you should not discard a youtube review simply because it's not a tech paper. There is very high quality content there, and it's not that hard to figure out which sources are good and which are blowing hot air in an echo chamber.

Did you read all that I wrote? Cut and paste below. Review please and ask yourself if it is I who has such a narrow focus. There are, as you agree tons of FAKE reviews. The OTHER items I like help sort the trash. Use them BOTH.

I never made SAE, ASTM, Doctoral thesis or White papers versus blogs, YouTube and personal experiences an either or thing. You all did that in a massive group assumption. What I did was offer the idea that they (these other tools) and a cuppa coffee might shed light on some dumb idea that has gained popular traction.

We are getting closer to an agreement. Just a little further.

the wanderer · March 27, 2019

16 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Did you read all that I wrote? Cut and paste below. Review please and ask yourself if it is I who has such a narrow focus. There are, as you agree tons of FAKE reviews. The OTHER items I like help sort the trash. Use them BOTH.

I never made SAE, ASTM, Doctoral thesis or White papers versus blogs, YouTube and personal experiences an either or thing. You all did that in a massive group assumption. What I did was offer the idea that they (these other tools) and a cuppa coffee might shed light on some dumb idea that has gained popular traction.

We are getting closer to an agreement. Just a little further.

Back up the truck there Grumpy. Here is a link to your first post which I originally responded to:

The guy you responded to said MT was getting their butt kicked by youtube channels like TFL Truck, which you then outright dismissed (read that post again) as useless.

A little snippet from that:

Quote

How did an Internet system designed, and at one time delivered, INFORMATION become a pay per view service for idiots that believe a catchy video is worth more than an ASTM or SAE tech paper? We've trade science for opinion and people with expertise for convenience. People like it when the reviews support their likes and biases. I'd rather have the truth.

I'm simply telling you, that MANY people value TFL truck MORE than a tech paper, by far, because for a start tech papers are very hard to digest if your not into specs (like most people) and capable of understanding them, and secondly specs really tell you shit; it's the experience that matters, whether it's driving a loaded truck up a hill, or purchasing your next computer (CPU is irrelevant in most use cases) etc etc. Specs require a LOT of education and knowledge to make an informed choice, and they can also be fudged (EPA and/or tow ratings anyone?) A review (youtube or other) which does a ton of comparison, in real world conditions, is infinitely more valuable to the vast majority of people.

This will be my last post on this because I feel you're going in circles.

MaverickZ71 · April 1, 2019

On 3/23/2019 at 7:55 AM, the wanderer said:

TFL Truck rocks, they are such an amazing team. Very unbiased, down to earth, and lightly humerous all at the same time. Those guys have everyone else beat as far as I'm concerned.

If you can see past their Ford bias.

KMGZ400 · April 1, 2019

On 3/24/2019 at 3:45 PM, OnTheReel said:

I’ve used 4 low A LOT over the years for towing. Especially when I had underpowered manual transmission trucks like my old Dodge Ram. I even pulled the front driveshaft out so I could steer on dry pavement in what essentially became 2 low mode.

Maybe it’s not as important now, but most people I know with decent sized boats still use low range to pull them out of the water around here. The ramps are steep and slippery, and the torque multiplication really helps.

I am baffled why they would remove low range as standard on this 4WD series of trucks. I think most people would take a floor shifter instead of the buttons if they could get low range back.

I always thought of AWD as permanent, always on, like the old Denalis were...

I wouldn't consider a truck that does not have 4WD low, especially when all of the other options do, My lake has a naturally formed rock boat launch and its imperative to use 4 low to pull the wakeboard boat out! engine size does not matter in that situation

the wanderer · April 1, 2019

7 hours ago, MaverickZ71 said:

If you can see past their Ford bias.

lol, every fanboy likes to accuse a reviewer of being "biased" just because they don't pick "your" truck. Here's the thing, Andre personally drives a Hummer (GMC), Nathan is really into RAM power wagons ("powerwagon don't care") and loves the Tacoma (Toyota), Roman just bought a company Rebel (RAM), Tommy is into Jeeps and Land Rovers (and they own both in the company). Kent and Andre have been on record so often reviewing and liking features (engines) of the new trucks.

So. I'm not seeing the Ford bias here, maverick. Don't be so sensitive.

Edited April 1, 2019 by the wanderer