Shocks vs Springs for Better Ride

[2WRDR]

2018 Silverado 1500 Single Cab, standard bed, 5.3L, 2WD, 4K miles, no interest in lifting truck or hauling/towing heavy loads.  

Goal - create a smoother yet more controlled ride if that's possible.  Reference: I've always noticed in general that trucks with a few hundred pounds in the bed rode better (smoother at least).  Iv'e noticed a lot of conversation of changing to Bilstein (mostly 5100 series) shocks and positive reports.  That being said I noticed most seem to do lifts or at least level the truck by bringing the front up to match rear.  I removed the rear blocks (free) and like the overall affect. I spoke with Bilstein and was advised against using 5100s, stating only to use if I was lifting the truck but for my setup to use the 4600s.  The representative then proceeded to tell me not to expect too much of an improvement.  All this together leads me to wonder if the ride would be more improved by changing springs?  My thoughts are trucks in general are over sprung to account for when they need to haul and so for everyday use they ride rough?  If it is over sprung though, why do so many have positive feedback on the Bilsteins.  This causes me to question my perception of the problem along with a general real lack of suspension understanding.

 

To my "thinking" lighter springs especially in the rear, backed up maybe with these SumoSprings (to help with that rare occassion I might have more weight on the rear) which I also hear positive results on, just might be what I need?

 

I would love feedback from some of you who understand suspension systems way better than I.  I plan to have this truck a long time and love this truck except for the rough ride.  I don't expect it to ride like a Cadilac but something a bit less harsh would be really nice.  If it were also a bit more controlled into turns that would be icing on the cake!

[1SLOW1500]

I'm going to sound like a jerk but what's your budget? Next ride height and use of truck. 

Unlike most things there is a perfect setup but doesn't come cheap. 

[bdbake01]

Well first just to set expectations, it's a truck.  Nothing you do to the suspension will change that.  

 

What, specifically, bothers you about the ride?

 

Regarding spring rate, these trucks are most certainly NOT oversprung (more on that).  Throw a heavy trailer on there, and you'll be nose up real quick.  That said, the struggle that pretty much every truck ever made has is that it's a multi-use vehicle.  It's made to go safely down the road with nothing in the bed, or 1,000lbs in the bed.  An automotive engineer could certainly make either of these ride like a dream, but both?  That's a tough challenge.

 

So for the rear specifically, the closest to a magic bullet that you can get is to come up with an adjustable suspension for both spring and shock rate.  On the wild end of things that could be a full mag ride setup or a 4 link suspension and airbags with adjustable shocks as well.  On the more sane side, maybe something like remove all but the primary spring, add an air ride setup and adjustable shocks.  You could get cheap and stick with a single rate shock, but you'd be seriously short changing the investment and won't get the results you want.

 

The front is even more complicated just due to the limited options.  The good news is that the front doesn't see the variation on load that the rear does, so you probably don't really need that much beyond maybe a set of Bilsteins.  

Edited February 17, 2019 by bdbake01

[TXGREEK]

2018 Silverado 1500 Single Cab, standard bed, 5.3L, 2WD, 4K miles, no interest in lifting truck or hauling/towing heavy loads.  
Goal - create a smoother yet more controlled ride if that's possible.  Reference: I've always noticed in general that trucks with a few hundred pounds in the bed rode better (smoother at least).  Iv'e noticed a lot of conversation of changing to Bilstein (mostly 5100 series) shocks and positive reports.  That being said I noticed most seem to do lifts or at least level the truck by bringing the front up to match rear.  I removed the rear blocks (free) and like the overall affect. I spoke with Bilstein and was advised against using 5100s, stating only to use if I was lifting the truck but for my setup to use the 4600s.  The representative then proceeded to tell me not to expect too much of an improvement.  All this together leads me to wonder if the ride would be more improved by changing springs?  My thoughts are trucks in general are over sprung to account for when they need to haul and so for everyday use they ride rough?  If it is over sprung though, why do so many have positive feedback on the Bilsteins.  This causes me to question my perception of the problem along with a general real lack of suspension understanding.
 
To my "thinking" lighter springs especially in the rear, backed up maybe with these SumoSprings (to help with that rare occassion I might have more weight on the rear) which I also hear positive results on, just might be what I need?
 
I would love feedback from some of you who understand suspension systems way better than I.  I plan to have this truck a long time and love this truck except for the rough ride.  I don't expect it to ride like a Cadilac but something a bit less harsh would be really nice.  If it were also a bit more controlled into turns that would be icing on the cake!

Bilstein shocks are entry level performance enhancement shocks that will keep you from having to much roll and will last much longer than stock but are NOT smoother, just quicker to respond versus the boat feeling oem Shocks. Coil Overs give the best ride quality but are much more expensive than even Bilsteins. Do not only go by what you see or hear in the forums, contact Eibach and let them know what you’re looking to do, Eibach builds coils for 95% of the high end shocks you hear about. Tires have a huge amount to do with ride quality too. E rated tires will ride rougher due to stiffer sidewalls compared to stock P rated tires with softer side walls.


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[Grumpy Bear]

Your asking an either/or question to an issue that cannot be solved with an either/or answer. I wish is could. I spent nearly five thousand on my setup and LOVE it but I could spend that much again and still find improvement. Take note of 1SLOW1500's reply. He's asking the right questions. The ones that start with you and not your truck. Almost every reply you will get is well meant and yet coming from a person who has their own preferences and views the situation through their own paradigm. Questions about your expectations and the trucks 'real' utility requirements, honestly answered, will enhance your results. 

 

My fur stands up when I hear replies that start, "It's a truck". What it is, is a platform. VW Beatle or 1 ton pickup, it's a  mass riding on four wheels with a suspension in between. It can be whatever you like it to be within the limits of it's framework and even that an be changed if you like. 

 

A platform intended to carry a ton and pull five isn't going to have the ride of a Buick and a platform that rides like a Buick won't haul a ton or pull five. That does not mean that there are not some compromises that can be made to widen the results. bdbaker01's comments on the back half an example. What it does mean is that you have to make up your mind and commit to a direction and be prepared to spend.  Any measure have taken...….well....it is disappointing. 

 

Preface complete, the factory coil-overs and rear shocks are price point items that don't do any task well.  bdbaker01's comment about it being a truck is a statement of fact rather than that of a possibility. (I dislike the statement because it implies it isn't possible when it is) Almost every replacement item in the aftermarket considers it a truck and designs to accommodate that fact. Most attempt to make it MORE of a truck. Meaning getting spring rates in a range that gives a car like ride is hard to find and finding shocks that are sealed tube shocks to have car like dampening is IMPOSSIBLE. It's a small market that no one what's a part of. That said there are vendors that will make you anything and you can buy rebuildable, tunable dampers in any configuration that please you. All it takes is commitment and $$$$. 

 

All that said, the most common complaint about the factory set up is that harsh jar you get on expansion joints, railroad tracks and steps in the pavement. Any aftermarket damper will improve that situation with the key word being IMPROVE. Eibach, Bilstein, Monroe, KYB, OEM replacements have improved dampening that works with factory spring rates. Match a set of those of your favorite flavor with setting castor to the lower half of the factory specs and Sulastic rear spring hangers....about as good as a budget build gets. 

[bdbake01]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Your asking an either/or question.

 

bdbaker01's comment about it being a truck is a statement of fact rather than that of a possibility. (I dislike the statement because it implies it isn't possible when it is)

 

My fur stands up when I hear replies that start, "Your asking" (*you're).

 

Just joking dude, I'm cool.

 

That said, my point was that a ~3 ton vehicle will never ride or handle like a ~1,300lb Ariel Atom regardless of the cash you could throw at it.  So, temper your expectations.  If you ditched every single body panel, sat on a milk crate and limited fillups to 5 gallons or less, it would probably STILL weigh more...and you'd be riding on a milk crate strapped to a chassis.  Maybe if you switched to pizza cutters you could save a few more pounds, but then the handling would be sacrificed.  Aerodynamics would be the of a milk crate on a chassis, but I suppose you could duck tape some cardboard up front to help.

 

So yes, LOTS of things are technically possible given unlimited cash.  But not miracles.  And what's more, there's the question of money reasonably spent.  If you wanna chase Porsches on the track, get a track tool.  If you wanna feel like you're flying sliiightly above the road instead of on it, get a Maybach. 

 

If you wanna haul some wood, tow a trailer and maybe take the little lady to dinner, get a truck and make some reasonable compromises.     

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, bdbake01 said:

That said, my point was that a ~3 ton vehicle will never ride or handle like a ~1,300lb Ariel Atom regardless of the cash you could throw at it.  

Evidently Bugatti is unaware they can't get TWO TONS of mass to handle, ride, accelerate or stop.

 

Bugatti Veyron SS. Over 4,000 pounds dry. 1.4 G lateral. 0-200 mph-0 in 23.6 seconds. 0-62 mph under 2.5, 1200 hp. Does NOT ride like a truck.

 

I repeat, it is a platform and responds like any other platform. 

 

Yes, you're not your. I beg your pardon. 

 

[bdbake01]

37 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Evidently Bugatti is unaware they can't get TWO TONS of mass to handle, ride, accelerate or stop.

 

Bugatti Veyron SS. Over 4,000 pounds dry. 1.4 G lateral. 0-200 mph-0 in 23.6 seconds. 0-62 mph under 2.5, 1200 hp. Does NOT ride like a truck.

 

I repeat, it is a platform and responds like any other platform. 

 

Yes, you're not your. I beg your pardon. 

 

Those kids over at Bugatti know their stuff, no doubt.  And with a, shall we say, relaxed budget, they have created engineering marvels that may never be topped (all details considered).

 

That said, I bet they'd probably struggle to do that with a body-on-frame / "ladder" frame chassis, a small bock V8 and a straight axle out back.  Does a Chiron have a Class III hitch???  I honestly don't know.  

 

I go back to my original point which was basically set your goals and budget, and we can talk.  

[2WRDR]

Ok, first thanks for responses.  Second to respond to questions I have been asked.  

Budget - $1500 or less.

Ride height and use - Stock front, rear I removed 1.25" OEM blocks.  I have no interest/need in lifting truck or hauling/towing heavy loads.

What bothers me - Harsh ride over normal paved street conditions.

 

Comments/Questions to responses:

Help me understand if OEM is not over sprung, why does adding a few hundred pounds in the bed suddenly transform to a smooth ride? 

Why don't they just make something progressive?  This is why I mentioned the possibility of lighter rear springs with the addition of Sumo Springs.

Contact Eibach?  Sounds like a good idea, I will do that.

Sulastic rear spring hangers, I will have to research that.

 

 

Hope that helps those trying to help me and I do appreciate it.  I realize most go the opposite direction wanting to increase ride height, load capacity, etc.  I just don't have a need for that in my truck.  I have a Solstice GXP with Bilsteins and added frame braces creating a "tight" more road performance platform, a 1250cc I-4 sport bike for quick acceleration.  As for my truck, I do not want that kind of ride and don't expect it to handle remotely as good, just a good useful daily driver.

[bdbake01]

32 minutes ago, 2WRDR said:

What bothers me - Harsh ride over normal paved street conditions.

Just going with a Bilstien 46/5100 will help this tremendously since as others have said, the factory ranchos struggle to last past 20k, and seemingly have no rebound dampening.

 

32 minutes ago, 2WRDR said:

Help me understand if OEM is not over sprung, why does adding a few hundred pounds in the bed suddenly transform to a smooth ride? 

Because like I said, the OEM has to choose a spring/shock rate that is a compromise.  Our trucks are made to go down the road empty, or fully loaded reasonably well.  But, somewhere between those two extremes lies that sweet spot where the suspension rides the best.  This doesn't mean it doesn't work for each extreme, it certainly does, but it rides best with some load in the bed because that's the weight that matches best with the suspension's settings.

 

32 minutes ago, 2WRDR said:

Why don't they just make something progressive?  This is why I mentioned the possibility of lighter rear springs with the addition of Sumo Springs.

Most leaf springs are progressive.  I dare say they may have been the first progressive spring design.  But if you want to remove some of the lift, take out the bottom, non-overload spring.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I think we have 4 loaded plus 1 overload?  Assuming that's the case, take out the 4th from the top and see how you like it.  You're probably still going to want a better shock because you really can't get much worse than what you have.  When I removed mine, 3 of the 4 were leaking, and two provided ZERO dampening in either direction.  May as well have been a dowel rod in a pvc tube.  

 

32 minutes ago, 2WRDR said:

I have a Solstice GXP with Bilsteins and added frame braces creating a "tight" more road performance platform

Nice!  Love that car.  I'm a Pontiac guy, but I may like the appearance of the Saturn Sky just a tad better.  But that GXP is sweet.

Edited February 17, 2019 by bdbake01

[Grumpy Bear]

Comments/Questions to responses:

 

Help me understand if OEM is not over sprung, why does adding a few hundred pounds in the bed suddenly transform to a smooth ride?  Why don't they just make something progressive? 

 

Let's say for sake of argument you have a truck that weighs 1,000 lbs. per corner and you wish to have 8 inches of travel. Your shock absorber will then need about 9 inches of travel minimum to neither bottom nor top out thus your spring selection should be one that leaves the shock at mid stroke with the vehicle sitting on the ground ready to roll. 1,000 lbs. / 4.5 inches = 222 pounds per inch spring rate. 

 

If you need it to carry 2,000 pounds of pay load adding 1,000 per side to the rear alone (load over the axle center) then you wheel load has doubled and you will need a spring twice as stiff to remain at mid stroke loaded or a spring of 444 pounds per inch spring rate. Empty you have 1,000 pounds on a spring of 444 pounds per inch thus 1,000 / 444 = 2.25" of deflection. She will sit 2" butt high unloaded and ride awful. Adding a few hundred pounds just takes you closer to the 'proper' spring rate for the load being carried. 

 

Bottom line? For running empty and sprung for a load TWICE it's name plate value of a HALF TON or 500 per wheel it is in fact over sprung FOR EMPTY RUNNING. Perfectly sprung for fully loaded and something in between at any other load between those two points. Adding weight tames the beast. 

 

Progressive nature in a leaf spring comes from the number of leaves in the spring. For the same deflection the more leaves in the spring pack the more progressive the rate. In my 2015 I had two leaves plus an overload. Not very progressive and hard to dampen. My Deaver pack is something like 15 leaves, very progressive and much kinder to dampers. Also outside your budget.

 

IF you in fact have a two leaf pack plus the short overload it 'may be' MAYBE possible to remove the center leaf. This will drop the rear but without knowing the exact single leaf rates you would have to experiment to find the exact value.  A dedicated spring shop like Deaver or National, Elgin Driveline could do the calculations. That said it will require a custom and tunable damper. Maybe Viking is in your price range? ( I try things I would never tell anyone else to do )

 

The front half is easier actually. Eibach might be in your range. Speak to their engineer and talk about the total package. On the cheap you MIGHT be able to use a Bilstein or Monroe up front with decent results. I'd say King but just the front coil overs kills your budget. 

 

Hope that answers your questions even if it isn't a solution it should provide some direction. Your headed in a direction that cuts across the grain. Patients and listen to the people that do it for a living. Eibach and National type people  or a dedicated suspension shop like Filthy Motorsports. Viking. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Grumpy Bear

[Mozzer]

Has anyone tried Belltech front shocks, 25004 are listed as being able to lower 2" or lift 2" which seems odd. I can't find any reviews from anyone who isn't lowering their truck.

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[Grumpy Bear]

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 6:56 AM, 2WRDR said:

To my "thinking" lighter springs especially in the rear, backed up maybe with these SumoSprings (to help with that rare occassion I might have more weight on the rear) which I also hear positive results on, just might be what I need?

https://www.sdtrucksprings.com/leaf-springs/truck-suv/chevy-gmc/silverado-sierra

 

Try these guys. They are in  your price range but talk to someone there. Don't just pick a set. Tell them you want something softer and more progressive. Listen to their questions and give honest answers. 

[Grumpy Bear]

11 hours ago, Mozzer said:

Has anyone tried Belltech front shocks, 25004 are listed as being able to lower 2" or lift 2" which seems odd. I can't find any reviews from anyone who isn't lowering their truck.

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Used them? No. Read the installation instructions, Yes and there is much to be learned doing that. 

 

1.) This shock in neither rebuildable nor tunable. 

2.) Single tube mono shock with independent compression and rebound valving.

 

(They all do. This just means that each directions valving is different.)

 

3.) Uses Factory springs, which could be interesting.

4.) Alters ride height via shimming of the lower spring mount. Can be done in half inch increments. 

5.) They state it 'radically' alters ride quality and handling and suggest you try them out in a remote location to accustom yourself to the new 'feel'. 

 

This is a one valve pack setup fits all spring rates and wheel rates. As shock length and thus travel is fixed then there is but one height adjustment that centers the shock in it's travel per spring and load. Meaning what is best fit for the shock might not be the ride height your after OR set for your preferred height the tendency to top our or bottom out will be greater dependent upon location bias. They rely heavy on the firm dampening plus progressive poly bump stop for compression over range when height adjustment places the shock at rest nearer the bottom of the stroke and factory welded in droop limiters for rebound when bias is upper.

 

There are a verity of factory front springs which could make this interesting. Coupled with some upper receiver strut spacing there would be allot of possible combinations. It would be 'cut and try' however as getting factory spring rates is going to be a problem.

 

The factory spring is of beehive geometry and progressive rate so sourcing alternate aftermarket springs would likely be impossible as they, the aftermarket, are conventional straight rate standard coil items unless you have them custom wound...which can be done. 

 

This is a product that is meant to solve a problem.  Cheaply. That of ride height. It is a most generous use of the word compromise. Valve rates damped well enough to limit bottom/top at the extremes of the designs range are going to be on the very firm side. This limits roll and pitch but gives up compliance. Firm and harsh are not the same thing and allot of people enjoy a very firm ride if it isn't harsh as well. 

 

All that from installation instructions. 

 

 

[Mozzer]

Well that answered that is no uncertain terms, thanks very much. Without seeing the instructions I thought it was impossible not to bottom out or top out but you've delved way deeper. Cheers

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