What did you pay for your truck?

Cowpie · September 14, 2019

5 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

I use my truck as a truck, and the HD was not and is not a “no brainer”. Not going to derail the thread with the obvious cons to buying an HD truck when a half ton would suffice. They are, or at least should be obvious.

MSRP against MSRP, the 6.2 and the 6.6 are nearly identical in sticker price for the same trims with the same cab/ bed configuration (even though the HD’s bed is a few inches longer).

While I don’t agree, there is still some stigma or undesirability about a gas powered HD that might drive the price down a little beyond the half ton discounts. But I would imagine the larger factor in the average cost difference is that the 6.6 is the base engine, and thus can be had in a much cheaper truck. Fleet/ WT, Custom, LT trucks and so on. You aren’t going to see an HD LTZ or SLT 6.6 going out the door for 40 grand, just as you won’t see a 1500 LTZ or SLT 6.2 at that price.

Keep it apples to apples and the price difference is negligible, at least in what I’ve seen so far.

The only flaw in your assertion is that the 6.2 isn't offered in the lower trims while the 6.6 is the base gas engine for the entire HD line. One automatically has to empty their wallet for a 6.2 1500 by virtue that they have to purchase a top end trim package just to get the 6.2. And GM adds insult to injury by calling for the 6.2 to use premium fuel if one actually wants to get the maximum performance from it. There is no way they could pull this sort of nonsense in the HD lineup or they would lose most of their commercial base which is the bread and butter of their HD product line. Proving yet again that dollar for dollar the 2500 is a far better value while providing more capability in both payload and towing, I checked NADA and thus far the average drive off the lot price for the 2500's is in the $40K range. I have yet to see the lowest end 6.2 1500 get that low of an average drive off the lot price.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Cowpie

batman900 · September 14, 2019

^ Dunno if all that applies for 2020 model but for the 2019s it's true. My finance guy and me were bs'ing when I purchased my 2019 a month ago, he had just gotten a 2019 HD 2500 because they were selling them for nothing. He didn't own a trailer and doesn't haul very often but for how cheap they've gotten and the resale he couldn't say no. For me, it won't fit in my carport with my wife's car and would make zero difference in my every day life but was it a better value for just a few K more? Yes. And is it a steal in comparison to a 1500? Yes. I honestly still feel like maybe just for the sake of resale I should have gotten the 2500.

The same however can be said when comparing midsize to full size trucks. Midsize cost almost the same. There is just a fit for every owner even if it means getting less for your money.

OnTheReel · September 14, 2019

1 hour ago, Cowpie said:

The only flaw in your assertion is that the 6.2 isn't offered in the lower trims while the 6.6 is the base gas engine for the entire HD line. One automatically has to empty their wallet for a 6.2 1500 by virtue that they have to purchase a top end trim package just to get the 6.2. And GM adds insult to injury by calling for the 6.2 to use premium fuel if one actually wants to get the maximum performance from it. There is no way they could pull this sort of nonsense in the HD lineup or they would lose most of their commercial base which is the bread and butter of their HD product line. Proving yet again that dollar for dollar the 2500 is a far better value while providing more capability in both payload and towing, I checked NADA and thus far the average drive off the lot price for the 2500's is in the $40K range. I have yet to see the lowest end 6.2 1500 get that low of an average drive off the lot price.

I mentioned in my post that the 6.6 is the base engine, thus also acknowledging that the 6.2 is only available in higher trims. Those higher trims sell for more money than the average 2500 WT. Obviously. That was exactly why I attempted to compare apples to apples in similarly equipped, same trim level trucks to get the best feel on actual value, and what you are really getting for your money...instead of just putting the blinders on and chasing only capability.

Main point was that there are other factors to buying a truck beyond towing and payload, and these type of posts saying the 2500 6.6 gasser is a “no brainer” ignores them.

Me personally, I like some luxury...so to get the same features in the HD, I’m spending the same or more than I paid for the 6.2. Obviously I sacrificed towing and payload capacity with the half ton. But I gained performance, drivability, ride quality, and something that actually fits in my garage.

t76turbo · September 14, 2019

Looking at a 19 at4. This would be my second new vehicle in my life. Always purchase vehicles that are a couple years old and let someone else take a lot of the depreciation hit.

I know this is a pricing thread and not necessarily a instructional thread but can anyone give me some input on how to get the best deal through Gm???

Just as an example, I know for Jeep, you can sign up for their ‘tread lightly’ organization for like $100 a year +/- and it gets you a discount of 1% off a new Jeep.

Anyone have any suggestions??

Cowpie · September 15, 2019

1 hour ago, OnTheReel said:

I mentioned in my post that the 6.6 is the base engine, thus also acknowledging that the 6.2 is only available in higher trims. Those higher trims sell for more money than the average 2500 WT. Obviously. That was exactly why I attempted to compare apples to apples in similarly equipped, same trim level trucks to get the best feel on actual value, and what you are really getting for your money...instead of just putting the blinders on and chasing only capability.

Main point was that there are other factors to buying a truck beyond towing and payload, and these type of posts saying the 2500 6.6 gasser is a “no brainer” ignores them.

Me personally, I like some luxury...so to get the same features in the HD, I’m spending the same or more than I paid for the 6.2. Obviously I sacrificed towing and payload capacity with the half ton. But I gained performance, drivability, ride quality, and something that actually fits in my garage.

I did a look up over at NADA. For similar package and comfort, a LTZ 6.2 1500 Crew is virtually the same MSRP as a LTZ 6.6L 2500HD Crew. Same packages except the payload and tow rating are substantially higher for the 2500 LTZ Crew. I had to add a couple of packages to the LTZ 6.2L 1500 to match up with some of the stuff that is basic to the 2500, and had to use as close to same wheel base as I could get to make things a more even match. So, they came in at virtually the same MSRP. More vehicle and capability with the 2500 for the same MSRP as the 1500 along with the 6.6 2500 only needing regular fuel to reach full operating potential compared to the 6.2 1500 needing premium fuel. In my area, an 80 cent price spread between those fuels. Even with the better MPG from a 6.2L 1500, it will still cost more per mile for fuel operating the 6.2L 1500 than the 6.6L 2500.

Still a no brainer.

As for riding comfort, my 2500 (or any 2500) rides pretty good if one replaces the stock Rancho shocks with a set of Bilsteins, only inflates the tires to match the actual weight loading on the axles, etc. I typically run about 50 PSI all the way around on my 2500 instead of the 60 front 70 rear door jam numbers. The 50 PSI more closely matches the load chart for the BFG KO2's from the tire maker themselves and not a guy in a cubicle at GM. It is actually quite comfortable on the few road trips we have taken it on.

Mine is little different situation. My 2500 DC with a 6.5 standard bed and even a snow plow attached fits in my heated garage. Of course, each garage is different.

Cowpie · September 15, 2019

2 hours ago, t76turbo said:

Looking at a 19 at4. This would be my second new vehicle in my life. Always purchase vehicles that are a couple years old and let someone else take a lot of the depreciation hit.

I know this is a pricing thread and not necessarily a instructional thread but can anyone give me some input on how to get the best deal through Gm???

Just as an example, I know for Jeep, you can sign up for their ‘tread lightly’ organization for like $100 a year +/- and it gets you a discount of 1% off a new Jeep.

Anyone have any suggestions??

I disregard all the marketing fluff. I never pay more than 80% of MSRP and usually less. I shoot for even less and sometimes it works out that way. But I will never pay more than 80% of MSRP. Not for my 98' 2500, 2006 Jeep Liberty diesel, 2013 1500, 2015 2500, and a 2017 Equinox. I focus only on the drive off the lot price, not getting mired down in discount packages, finance details (if one is going to finance), etc. If a dealer can turn the customer focus away from the literal price that one would need to write a check for to take the vehicle home, they can play a lot of slight of hand tricks to muck up the numbers and the customer ends up not getting nearly the deal they could get.

I view each part is a separate negotiation.... (1) the price for the new vehicle, (2) the value of the trade if any, and (3) the financing, if any. I never let these different parts get intermingled in any deal. Keep things separate and you are less likely to be taken advantage of and you are able to focus better. If I have a trade in, I always look up the vehicle in the NADA guides and will not accept less than the average NADA trade value for the same vehicle in the same condition. It is fair. The NADA guide is the recognized guide for all dealerships... auto, RV, motorcycle, etc.

And always know that any deal can be killed at any time...even after signing all the paperwork. The deal is only sealed legally once you cross the curb with the new vehicle. That is commonly referred to as the "curb law" in dealer and legal circles. If a dealer knows that you understand that the deal can be killed any time before you actually leave with the vehicle, you have an edge. I can even have all the finance contracts signed, but those can be nullified as long as I never drive the vehicle off the lot. You can walk or drive away from any deal at any time with no legal liability.

I have no desire to take any dealer to the cleaners. They have a floor plan they have to pay on their inventory, they have property taxes, they have overhead and payroll to meet, and they have homes and families to provide for. But I will not allow an uneven playing field in any deal negotiation. Even if they are the only dealer in 200 miles to have the exact vehicle I want, I can go to another dealer and have them get that vehicle from the other dealer and brought to them. I did that exact thing with the 2006 Jeep Liberty diesel I bought. Had it brought to a dealer from a dealership in another state. Even with the fee to bring it to the dealer, was still a better deal than the original dealer. No need to settle for anything. There is always another dealer that can be talked to.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Cowpie

OnTheReel · September 15, 2019

35 minutes ago, Cowpie said:

I did a look up over at NADA. For similar package and comfort, a LTZ 6.2 1500 Crew is virtually the same MSRP as a LTZ 6.6L 2500HD Crew. Same packages except the payload and tow rating are substantially higher for the 2500 LTZ Crew. I had to add a couple of packages to the LTZ 6.2L 1500 to match up with some of the stuff that is basic to the 2500, and had to use as close to same wheel base as I could get to make things a more even match. So, they came in at virtually the same MSRP. More vehicle and capability with the 2500 for the same MSRP as the 1500 along with the 6.6 2500 only needing regular fuel to reach full operating potential compared to the 6.2 1500 needing premium fuel. In my area, an 80 cent price spread between those fuels. Even with the better MPG from a 6.2L 1500, it will still cost more per mile for fuel operating the 6.2L 1500 than the 6.6L 2500.

Still a no brainer.

As for riding comfort, my 2500 (or any 2500) rides pretty good if one replaces the stock Rancho shocks with a set of Bilsteins, only inflates the tires to match the actual weight loading on the axles, etc. I typically run about 50 PSI all the way around on my 2500 instead of the 60 front 70 rear door jam numbers. The 50 PSI more closely matches the load chart for the BFG KO2's from the tire maker themselves and not a guy in a cubicle at GM. It is actually quite comfortable on the few road trips we have taken it on.

Mine is little different situation. My 2500 DC with a 6.5 standard bed and even a snow plow attached fits in my heated garage. Of course, each garage is different.

Don’t get too hung up on the premium fuel. In dyno tests it was good for 3 horsepower at the wheels, and a minimal fuel economy penalty, if any. I run premium, but it’s certainly not 100% necessary, nor does GM say it is.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Premium-Fuel-Phase-II-Research-Report-FINAL-2.pdf

I’m sure we all feel great about our purchases and our heated garages. And we all do different things with our trucks and have different expectations. I never said the 6.2 is the perfect choice for everyone, or anyone even. I think the 6.6 in the HDs is great option. I would even prefer it to the Duramax to avoid the emissions crap and 10k upcharge.

But cut the shit just a little bit here. You are basically arguing that a slower, less maneuverable, less economical, less refined vehicle that has 4 fewer gears is a no brainer for anyone who needs a truck, because you’re getting more weight per dollar basically? Even if it is harder to park, harder to handle in crowded streets around town, harder for shorter/ older people to get in and out of, and harder to load? Even if that person 100% doesn’t even need and will never use the added towing and payload capacity? C’mon now...

Wmoor004 · September 15, 2019

3 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

I mentioned in my post that the 6.6 is the base engine, thus also acknowledging that the 6.2 is only available in higher trims. Those higher trims sell for more money than the average 2500 WT. Obviously. That was exactly why I attempted to compare apples to apples in similarly equipped, same trim level trucks to get the best feel on actual value, and what you are really getting for your money...instead of just putting the blinders on and chasing only capability.

Main point was that there are other factors to buying a truck beyond towing and payload, and these type of posts saying the 2500 6.6 gasser is a “no brainer” ignores them.

Me personally, I like some luxury...so to get the same features in the HD, I’m spending the same or more than I paid for the 6.2. Obviously I sacrificed towing and payload capacity with the half ton. But I gained performance, drivability, ride quality, and something that actually fits in my garage.

Great info

Cowpie · September 15, 2019

2 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

But cut the shit just a little bit here. You are basically arguing that a slower, less maneuverable, less economical, less refined vehicle that has 4 fewer gears is a no brainer for anyone who needs a truck, because you’re getting more weight per dollar basically? Even if it is harder to park, harder to handle in crowded streets around town, harder for shorter/ older people to get in and out of, and harder to load? Even if that person 100% doesn’t even need and will never use the added towing and payload capacity? C’mon now...

Guess it all depends on what less maneuverable really means or slower. Best I can tell, every 2500 being made, including the 6.0 versions, will go faster than any posted speed limit in the country. And my 2500 Z71 4x4 has no problem maneuvering trailers in my pole barn into different locations. And we have never had any issue parking in any parking lot in town, including parallel parking around the town square. And I dropped the back end of my 2500 with a set of McGaughy's 2" drop shackles and put on a set of Raptor running boards, so even my shorter (5' 2") wife with bad knees and hips has no problem entering and exiting the truck. Even my mother who is in her mid 80's can get in and out of the truck... unassisted. You must be only thinking of those that elevate their pickups into nose bleed territory. I am an Army medically retired disabled veteran and I have no more problem getting in and out of the bed of my 2500 than any 1500, since I dropped the cat in heat rake with the McGaughy's shackles. Maybe it is just attitude that I will not be hindered in doing anything even though I am in my 60's and I paid my dues way back in the day in the Army. But then, I still ride a Triumph Bonneville motorcycle also. And my putting on a set of SumoSprings 1500 lb urethane cellular foam supports in place of the axle bump stops, I can still put well over a ton of material in the back and it just starts to approach a level stance along with the SumoSprngs offering a air bag quality ride without the air bag hassles.

Yeah, the 2500 is heavier, which can be a real boon in towing. The tail is never wagging the dog even in the heavy cross winds we sometimes have out here in corn patch USA.

So C'mon now.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Cowpie

OnTheReel · September 15, 2019

I hoped you would consider the simple, objective argument I made against a buyer purchasing the HD truck if the added capacity is not needed, but I see we are still in tunnel vision mode and not ever going to agree.

It’s a good thing the facts, specs and performance metrics speak for themselves anyway. Have a good night, and thank you for your service.

KARNUT · September 15, 2019

Don’t get too hung up on the premium fuel. In dyno tests it was good for 3 horsepower at the wheels, and a minimal fuel economy penalty, if any. I run premium, but it’s certainly not 100% necessary, nor does GM say it is.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Premium-Fuel-Phase-II-Research-Report-FINAL-2.pdf

I’m sure we all feel great about our purchases and our heated garages. And we all do different things with our trucks and have different expectations. I never said the 6.2 is the perfect choice for everyone, or anyone even. I think the 6.6 in the HDs is great option. I would even prefer it to the Duramax to avoid the emissions crap and 10k upcharge.

But cut the shit just a little bit here. You are basically arguing that a slower, less maneuverable, less economical, less refined vehicle that has 4 fewer gears is a no brainer for anyone who needs a truck, because you’re getting more weight per dollar basically? Even if it is harder to park, harder to handle in crowded streets around town, harder for shorter/ older people to get in and out of, and harder to load? Even if that person 100% doesn’t even need and will never use the added towing and payload capacity? C’mon now...

The same can be said in comparing a half ton versus a car for most 1/2 ton buyers. A car is more efficient, much easier to handle, easily fits into a garage, definitely more fun to drive, kids get in easier. Nothing more amusing than watching a petite woman trying to park one. A Denali verses most any sports performance car, I choose car. And I like them all. I have one of each.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cowpie · September 15, 2019

8 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

I hoped you would consider the simple, objective argument I made against a buyer purchasing the HD truck if the added capacity is not needed, but I see we are still in tunnel vision mode and not ever going to agree.

It’s a good thing the facts, specs and performance metrics speak for themselves anyway. Have a good night, and thank you for your service.

I will admit my vision is a little tainted to some respect. Being an old Army Cavalry Sergeant, I expect everyone to pack the gear. No gold bricks in the bunch. To that end, I pay for 8 cylinders and I expect them all to work all the time the motor is running. If I wanted a 4 cylinder, I would have bought a 4 cylinder like the motor in my wife's Equinox. Therefore, I will not buy a vehicle where some of the cylinders take OEM or Union inspired smoke breaks while the others have to do the work. In other words, the goofy AFM stuff which, to wit this forum, has caused quite a bit of heartburn for many owners leading to many repairs and work around patches.

And the issue of LSPI (Low Speed Pre Ignition) issues that can really mess up an engine that has higher compression ratios like the 6.2 Ecotec, especially with the engine down speeding motivation of the OEM's in an attempt to improve fuel economy by using taller and taller differential ratios in 1/2 ton pickups and autos. And one will not know it is an issue till damage is done since the ECM tries to work around it, so the only real prevention to this common problem is using higher octane fuels which are significantly more expensive. Thus, while not "required" by the OEM (mostly for marketing reasons), using Premium only in the 6.2 Ectoec is probably a wise idea. This leads to why we use only 100 octane E85 in my wife's Equinox with the Flex Fuel 2.4L 11.2:1 compression ratio engine. Roughly $1.20 less than Premium in my area so is far more cost effective per mile to use, even with the lower MPG. So, LSPI will never be a factor. Unfortunately the 6.2 Ecotec is not a flex fuel motor.

Less complexity or being "less refined" is not always a bad thing. Occam's Razor principle comes to mind as well as Scotty's comment in a Star Trek movie about the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. And since the only way to avoid this sort of thing right out of the gate is to buy a 3/4 ton or larger, that puts the bottom end of the truck line for me at the 2500 or Class 2 level. And, thankfully, the 6.6L L8T does not have AFM stuff, and the compression ratio is lower than the 6.2 Ecotec, making the issue of LSPI less of a probability by using regular fuel. Fortunately, the 2500 line can be had quite frequently for the same or even less money off the lot than much of the 1/2 ton line.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Cowpie

econometrics · September 16, 2019

What the heyl does this have to do with what someone paid for a truck!?

t76turbo · September 16, 2019

On 9/14/2019 at 6:40 PM, t76turbo said:

Looking at a 19 at4. This would be my second new vehicle in my life. Always purchase vehicles that are a couple years old and let someone else take a lot of the depreciation hit.

I know this is a pricing thread and not necessarily a instructional thread but can anyone give me some input on how to get the best deal through Gm???

Just as an example, I know for Jeep, you can sign up for their ‘tread lightly’ organization for like $100 a year +/- and it gets you a discount of 1% off a new Jeep.

Anyone have any suggestions??

On 9/14/2019 at 8:59 PM, Cowpie said:

I disregard all the marketing fluff. I never pay more than 80% of MSRP and usually less. I shoot for even less and sometimes it works out that way. But I will never pay more than 80% of MSRP. Not for my 98' 2500, 2006 Jeep Liberty diesel, 2013 1500, 2015 2500, and a 2017 Equinox. I focus only on the drive off the lot price, not getting mired down in discount packages, finance details (if one is going to finance), etc. If a dealer can turn the customer focus away from the literal price that one would need to write a check for to take the vehicle home, they can play a lot of slight of hand tricks to muck up the numbers and the customer ends up not getting nearly the deal they could get.

I view each part is a separate negotiation.... (1) the price for the new vehicle, (2) the value of the trade if any, and (3) the financing, if any. I never let these different parts get intermingled in any deal. Keep things separate and you are less likely to be taken advantage of and you are able to focus better. If I have a trade in, I always look up the vehicle in the NADA guides and will not accept less than the average NADA trade value for the same vehicle in the same condition. It is fair. The NADA guide is the recognized guide for all dealerships... auto, RV, motorcycle, etc.

And always know that any deal can be killed at any time...even after signing all the paperwork. The deal is only sealed legally once you cross the curb with the new vehicle. That is commonly referred to as the "curb law" in dealer and legal circles. If a dealer knows that you understand that the deal can be killed any time before you actually leave with the vehicle, you have an edge. I can even have all the finance contracts signed, but those can be nullified as long as I never drive the vehicle off the lot. You can walk or drive away from any deal at any time with no legal liability.

I have no desire to take any dealer to the cleaners. They have a floor plan they have to pay on their inventory, they have property taxes, they have overhead and payroll to meet, and they have homes and families to provide for. But I will not allow an uneven playing field in any deal negotiation. Even if they are the only dealer in 200 miles to have the exact vehicle I want, I can go to another dealer and have them get that vehicle from the other dealer and brought to them. I did that exact thing with the 2006 Jeep Liberty diesel I bought. Had it brought to a dealer from a dealership in another state. Even with the fee to bring it to the dealer, was still a better deal than the original dealer. No need to settle for anything. There is always another dealer that can be talked to.

Thanks for all the info @Cowpie

found another at4 that is close to me and has a slightly higher msrp but about the same ‘sale’ price. Guess I need to get into the dealerships. Have an infection in my leg and was trying to stay off it till it heals.

I have a feeling that when I get in there, the advertised sale price will include discounts I am not eligible for. But maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.

Chris Callanan · September 16, 2019

20 minutes ago, t76turbo said:

I have a feeling that when I get in there, the advertised sale price will include discounts I am not eligible for. But maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.

Work with the dealer - we got the discount for current GM Leasees, which we aren't, but they gave us the discount anyhow.... So you may get more than you think.