First oil change mileage

Snoringbear · January 27, 2019

Aww now, be tolerant of and indulge us old dogs as we remininise about the old days. It won’t be too many years till millineals will be recalling the good old days when they could actually drive a car. ?

ftwhite · January 27, 2019

Anybody want to buy 5gal of 3-5k mile used Amsoil? I'll supply you with a constant supply if your interested.
Caviat: I use 0w30, instead of the manufacturers recommendation.
But for the right price, I'll switch back if you promise to buy.
Based on the experts, it is only 1/8th used, so I'll double the discount (say 25%? ) off retail price.

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diyer2 · January 27, 2019

On 1/25/2019 at 6:05 PM, ForumUser said:

Smiling, also.

You don’t NEED to change it when it gets darker ... because there is nothing wrong with it ... it is just darker.

Do you believe the oil filter is working? If so, then the oil itself, per your feeling, is deteriorating or losing its ability to lubricate and suspend particles?

Nah ...here’s a very basic summary of why that isn’t true ...https://auto.howstuffworks.com/5-engine-oil-myths2.htm

I have said this in a previous post and have believed this for years.

This article confirms to me why I still do 3 K miles oil changes with dino oil or synthetic oil.

I could do 5 K or more but prefer 3 K.

As the article says the oil darkens from the junk suspended in the oil.

When the oil is saturated with the junk, the junk gets deposited on the inside of the engine IMO.

A sponge can hold a limited amount water, then the water is dispersed, the same as the junk in motor oil.

It has been this old timers experience that well maintained vehicles last longer, aren't prone to break downs, are more reliable and run better.

I want longevity.

Edited January 27, 2019 by diyer2

KARNUT · January 27, 2019

Anybody want to buy 5gal of 3-5k mile used Amsoil? I'll supply you with a constant supply if your interested.
Caviat: I use 0w30, instead of the manufacturers recommendation.
But for the right price, I'll switch back if you promise to buy.
Based on the experts, it is only 1/8th used, so I'll double the discount (say 25%? ) off retail price.

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That’s probably the stupidest post I’ve read on here, that’s saying something.

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ForumUser · January 27, 2019

Smiling, again.

The sponge and internal combustion engine oil reference is not a realistic comparison.

So, you're doing 3K mile synthetic oil changes the same way your grandfather did 3K mile Quaker State 30W changes in 1960?

diyer2 · January 27, 2019

Yes

Where you been?

Said that long ago.

My choice.

Your choice to disagree.

ftwhite · January 27, 2019

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

That’s probably the stupidest post I’ve read on here, that’s saying something.

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OK, ok, 50% off.

Snoringbear · January 28, 2019

18 hours ago, ForumUser said:

Smiling, again.

The sponge and internal combustion engine oil reference is not a realistic comparison.

So, you're doing 3K mile synthetic oil changes the same way your grandfather did 3K mile Quaker State 30W changes in 1960?

I’m a grandpa, actually, I used Gulf 30W ?...

Daverado · January 28, 2019

So.. machine/vehicle maintenance is actually something that has been scienced in the past. It's not something you have to trust your gut on.

It's been observed that maintaining vehicles more than necessary decreases reliability. Maintaining them only as-required increases reliability and decreases cost. Cost is why we want our tools and machines to last longer in the first place most of the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability-centered_maintenance#Background

Every time you take apart a properly operating piece of equipment, you are introducing risk to it continuing to function properly.

Plugs get forgotten, threads get stripped, seals get pinched, dirt and contaminants enter the unsealed system, etc. Maintenance *is* wear-and-tear of a different kind.

The GM Oil Life Monitor is actually one of the best in the industry for ensuring only necessary maintenance is done. It changes the oil change cycle from spooky gut-based preventative to science-based predictive.

ftwhite · January 28, 2019

I don't disagree with your theory. However, automotive engineering is not pure science. If it was. We wouldn't have "Chev shakes" due to fluid issues, and battery ground cable problems, to name only a few. Engineering is at best "fail fast" application of science, and learning. I would be very curious to hear about a science based study with a conclusion that changing oil too much is detrimental to your vehicle life.

Also, the GM oil monitor might be backed by some science, but it is based on statistics and a dose of marketing. It is 100% software and has no idea what quality of oil or filter is used, or is, at any time.

I will bet that there is a market for "lifetime oil" that claims, via science, that it never needs to be changed for the life of the car. I am not in that target market, nor am I in the market for 15k or 25k oil.

I do fit into the "5000 miles" on the best oil I can find market. That seems like a good value proposition to me. Plenty of science can back that up too. Including, the oil change monitor usually, but only after the first change. Which I did at 800 miles.

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Snoringbear · January 28, 2019

I’m a retired manufacturing manger. I introduced into my operation a similar program pioneered by Toyota over twenty years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_productive_maintenance this along with SPC (statistical process control) has exponentially improved quality across virtually all product spectrums. Superior quality handbuilt by little elves in the Bavarian mountains is a myth ?...

ftwhite · January 28, 2019

Toyota even implies that 10,000 miles is enough, and for offroad, work, or trailering applications, or their 4x4 e85 Sequoia and Tundra, 5000mi and even 2500mi seems to be better:

http://toyota.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/7604/~/what-are-the-oil-change-intervals-using-synthetic-oil%3F

"

If the vehicle operation meets the standard criteria for "Special Operating Conditions" such as: driving off-road, on dirt roads, towing a trailer, making repeated short trips under 32˚ F, or extensive idling; the engine oil must be replaced at 5,000 mile intervals, regardless of what type of oil is used.

"

Daverado · January 28, 2019

29 minutes ago, ftwhite said:

I don't disagree with your theory. However, automotive engineering is not pure science. If it was. We wouldn't have "Chev shakes" due to fluid issues, and battery ground cable problems, to name only a few. Engineering is at best "fail fast" application of science, and learning. I would be very curious to hear about a science based study with a conclusion that changing oil too much is detrimental to your vehicle life.

Also, the GM oil monitor might be backed by some science, but it is based on statistics and a dose of marketing. It is 100% software and has no idea what quality of oil or filter is used, or is, at any time.

I will bet that there is a market for "lifetime oil" that claims, via science, that it never needs to be changed for the life of the car. I am not in that target market, nor am I in the market for 15k or 25k oil.

I do fit into the "5000 miles" on the best oil I can find market. That seems like a good value proposition to me. Plenty of science can back that up too. Including, the oil change monitor usually, but only after the first change. Which I did at 800 miles.

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The question seemed to me to be whether modern synthetic oils continue working while contaminated, and whether contaminated oil leaves deposits on engine components more than clean oil does, and for given oils, where that transition takes place. What do battery ground cables have to do with that at all?

I don't think it's really fair to say the same amount of study has been applied to how oil functions inside an internal-combustion engine as it does to whether driveline harmonics cause one particular GM truck platform to shake more than a different one. Unless you're arguing that this engine uses oil differently than other engines. Then I am very interested in your oil change regimen for your your other engines and the science you use to decide what's appropriate for each, and how that's better than GM's "some science"

The only "lifetime oil" claims I've seen are typically on lawnmowers or such that don't use oil filters and are expected to burn enough oil that simply keeping them properly filled is going to swap in clean oil regularly enough for the lifetime of the machine.

GMC-AT · January 28, 2019

Isn't it funny how much of an emotional topic oil is ? lol.

I can tell you this... you plan to to keep your truck over 150K miles.. or work it hard...change it every 5K or whatever.

But if you are like most truck buyers today.. you trade in every 2-5 years, often times with less than 100K miles. Even though you "think" your going to keep your truck forever, most rarely do. It's not like 20+ years ago when you always keep that Oldsmobile for 15 years.

I would be willing to bet anything your chance of having an engine failure in the first 100K related to 15K oil changes is near 0%

ftwhite · January 28, 2019

1 hour ago, Daverado said:

The question seemed to me to be whether modern synthetic oils continue working while contaminated, and whether contaminated oil leaves deposits on engine components more than clean oil does, and for given oils, where that transition takes place. What do battery ground cables have to do with that at all?

I don't think it's really fair to say the same amount of study has been applied to how oil functions inside an internal-combustion engine as it does to whether driveline harmonics cause one particular GM truck platform to shake more than a different one. Unless you're arguing that this engine uses oil differently than other engines. Then I am very interested in your oil change regimen for your your other engines and the science you use to decide what's appropriate for each, and how that's better than GM's "some science"

The only "lifetime oil" claims I've seen are typically on lawnmowers or such that don't use oil filters and are expected to burn enough oil that simply keeping them properly filled is going to swap in clean oil regularly enough for the lifetime of the machine.

Agreed on the part about "whether modern synthetic oils continue working while contaminated, and whether contaminated oil leaves deposits on engine components more than clean oil does, and for given oils, where that transition takes place". I feel, based on reading forums and reports, that a good synthetic likely doesn't transition over to causing damage before 5000mi with my driving environment. Anyone is free to push that limit closer to the point you feel comfortable.

You made the claim that "maintenance is actually something that has been scienced in the past". I disagree with that. Maintenance is determined by engineering decisions, both good and bad. It is not "science". It is trial and error, with a large dose of cost cutting and marketing thrown in.

As an example, I mentioned that the current solution and suspected culprit in the drivetrain harmonics (shake and shift issues) people complain about is to replace the factory ATF fluid (an oil) in the torque converter and transmission. I assumed this was "scienced" before they built these trucks, but it turns out engineering is harder than just applying known fluid and viscosity science. Engineered oils, don't always behave in the way the engineers predicted or desired (or as was told to the customer). The engineers fail, learn, and adapt.

So, when I change my oil, or do other maintenance tasks, it is not based on science, it is based on me failing, learning, and adapting (and reading these forums where real world results are gathered). No engineers at GM, or any other car company, all with histories of predicting the wrong oil change intervals and correcting them when they fail, will convince me to "just trust us" "we science this".

My wife's Audi was leased to her with "extended oil change intervals". I never understood why this was even a thing on a leased vehicle. In the 35k miles she has driven it, the Oil Change reminder has gone off twice. In that same time the oil has been changed 4 times, because they had to rebuild one of the cylinders due to "scoring" and replace the oil pressure sensor because it failed. It would be super cool to travel back in time to apply 500mile first change and 5k oil changes with better than factory oil and filters, and see if the results would have been different. Fortunately, in July this year, the car belongs to Audi and not me.

Edited January 28, 2019 by ftwhite