Timing

cmysstailights · January 28, 2018

Installed a bully dog for my 15 6.0. The tuner shows around 40* timing when driving and around 10 to 12* when stopped. I run e85 and was told to use the premium tune. Anyone know what the exact timing would be, dont really trust the display on the tune.

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XSKIER · January 29, 2018

Those numbers seem about right. In a premium tune, you should see about 27° + or - a couple at 3500 tapering down to about 18° at 5500 while in power enrich mode. At part throttle, timing can be in the 50s or 60s upon deceleration. All depends on how bulley wrote your tune. Can you also log KR, knock retard? If you are trying to throw more timing at it, you are going to want to watch KR.

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Grumpy Bear · January 29, 2018

4 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

don't really trust the display on the tune.

Why's that? This statement implies that you have a factually based expectation that was not realized or you wouldn't question it at all; but asking for others input says you hadn't any expectations at all. That pretty much defines confused as a preacher in hell. What exactly do you want help with?

cmysstailights · January 29, 2018

Why's that? This statement implies that you have a factually based expectation that was not realized or you wouldn't question it at all; but asking for others input says you hadn't any expectations at all. That pretty much defines confused as a preacher in hell. What exactly do you want help with?

Because the other day i read 4 5* at idle then jumped up to 15*. I know running e85 i will get more timing because of the fuel. I will have to see if i can do a data log with this

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Grumpy Bear · January 29, 2018

4 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

Because the other day i read 4 5* at idle then jumped up to 15*. I know running e85 i will get more timing because of the fuel. I will have to see if i can do a data log with this

I see. Okay then. You have it all figured out. Enjoy the remainder of the day.

redwngr · January 29, 2018

You don't trust them to do a display, but you do trust them to make programming changes that could damage your truck???

I'm confused too.

cmysstailights · January 29, 2018

I see. Okay then. You have it all figured out. Enjoy the remainder of the day.

The question was the 4 to 5* i saw on display then go to 15* after initial start up havent seen it before. Also mpg on display is off shows 18mpg when truck reads 14mpg. So looking to see if anyone else has the tuner or tuned and can give insight on what timing would be around at stock and tuned for premium fuel.

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Grumpy Bear · January 29, 2018

Here's the problem. XSKIER gave you an answer and a pretty darn good one too. As you ignored him but answered mine which questioned the basis for asking your question; you put everyone on notice that you already knew the answer...at least you think you do.

Then there's this. Which version of this query quoted below is the one you want answered?

3 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

The question was the 4 to 5* i saw on display then go to 15* .

10 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

Because the other day i read 4 5* at idle then jumped up to 15*

One says 4 to 5 ignition on, motor not running the other says motor running.

22 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

The tuner shows around 40* timing when driving and around 10 to 12* when stopped.

Then this one below is just to vague to answer.

3 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

So looking to see if anyone else has the tuner or tuned and can give insight on what timing would be around at stock and tuned for premium fuel.

All of this tells me that you don't know what purpose of timing is. If you did you would reference your question with the pertinent conditions that determine timing. That is it would look something like:

"What timing have you found effective for a stock 2014 6.0 weighting 6200 lb. geared 4:10 in high gear with a load of 70% E-85 90 (R+M)/2 at 2500 feet corrected elevation and 5200 rpm at WOT on a 55 degree day".

Timing in todays motors is set by a map that asks all these questions and are get their answers from multiple sensors many times a second and more. Why? Because they ALL effect flame speed. The right timing for a well sorted motor will build the highest BMEP just as the rod and crankpin make a dead right angle without incipient detonation. Timing is just another way of determining time in radian/seconds.

You paid these people to provide a map based on what? What you got was a 'canned' and very safe tune. They didn't come by those numbers without allot of background engineering, dyno testing and road work that you didn't provide. They are aware that a few really poor choices lead to a business that wont float.

Besides if you don't trust the Pro's, why would us common people venture an answer. You got this much dead on. If you want a sharper tune you will need to data log your run time under various conditions. They will tell you the how of it.

cmysstailights · January 29, 2018

Here's the problem. XSKIER gave you an answer and a pretty darn good one too. As you ignored him but answered mine which questioned the basis for asking your question; you put everyone on notice that you already knew the answer...at least you think you do.

Then there's this. Which version of this query quoted below is the one you want answered?
All of this tells me that you don't know what purpose of timing is. If you did you would reference your question with the pertinent conditions that determine timing. That is it would look something like:

"What timing have you found effective for a stock 2014 6.0 weighting 6200 lb. geared 4:10 in high gear with a load of 70% E-85 90 (R+M)/2 at 2500 feet corrected elevation and 5200 rpm at WOT on a 55 degree day".

Timing in todays motors is set by a map that asks all these questions and are get their answers from multiple sensors many times a second and more. Why? Because they ALL effect flame speed. The right timing for a well sorted motor will build the highest BMEP just as the rod and crankpin make a dead right angle without incipient detonation. Timing is just another way of determining time in radian/seconds.

You paid these people to provide a map based on what? What you got was a 'canned' and very safe tune. They didn't come by those numbers without allot of background engineering, dyno testing and road work that you didn't provide. They are aware that a few really poor choices lead to a business that wont float.

Besides if you don't trust the Pro's, why would us common people venture an answer. You got this much dead on. If you want a sharper tune you will need to data log your run time under various conditions. They will tell you the how of it.

I read read the comment and understood it. I was looking for helping answer or possible insight as to what the timing could be which was provided in post 2. I understand what timing is and does and that i have a generic tune. I also understand that i am gonna get a safer tune rather than a tuner tuning that is more in depth. I have a car fully moded and tuned (not this truck) and this isnt my first car that is "moded". I was looking for a bassis of what timing would possibly be at and why would I see a 5-degree timing at idle and then it shot to 15° still at idle. You being a sarcastic dick doesnt help me out with an answer. One thing i have always hated about message boards in the last 20 years are douche people that dont want to answer something simply. And thanks i was able to enjoy the remainder of my day, dont know how i couldnt have with your approval.

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SierraHD17 · January 30, 2018

Ok so what timing numbers do you want to confirm? Are we talking the stock table with the alcohol multiplier or whatever Bullydog does to their tune? I could probably post the high octane spark table from my truck but then it's not representative of the multipliers that add timing based on various other things. Like even if Bullydog affects the main spark table there are still other factors that can add or subtract timing based on the situation.

Under low load and even at start up you might see some wonky numbers...... and yes there is a pile of advance at cruise or lower rpm. Nothing you have posted is out of the ordinary. With good fuel you can throw a ton of timing at these engines..... I have 30 degrees advance at wide open throttle right to my 6000 rpm shifts and I don't lose a thing to the knock sensors. Guys like to claim there is no benefit above around 23 or 24 degrees total on L92 heads but I beg to differ.

I will tell you that you will get no more timing out of these engines with the stock settngs and switching from regular to premium. They would be very hard pressed to knock on regular with as little advance as they have when the engine is actually loaded. e85 can add timing if that's what you are wondering but it's based on alcohol composition and feedback from the sensor.

cmysstailights · January 30, 2018

Ok so what timing numbers do you want to confirm? Are we talking the stock table with the alcohol multiplier or whatever Bullydog does to their tune? I could probably post the high octane spark table from my truck but then it's not representative of the multipliers that add timing based on various other things. Like even if Bullydog affects the main spark table there are still other factors that can add or subtract timing based on the situation.

Under low load and even at start up you might see some wonky numbers...... and yes there is a pile of advance at cruise or lower rpm. Nothing you have posted is out of the ordinary. With good fuel you can throw a ton of timing at these engines..... I have 30 degrees advance at wide open throttle right to my 6000 rpm shifts and I don't lose a thing to the knock sensors. Guys like to claim there is no benefit above around 23 or 24 degrees total on L92 heads but I beg to differ.

I will tell you that you will get no more timing out of these engines with the stock settngs and switching from regular to premium. They would be very hard pressed to knock on regular with as little advance as they have when the engine is actually loaded. e85 can add timing if that's what you are wondering but it's based on alcohol composition and feedback from the sensor.

Thanks, under no load just idle i am seeing weird numbers from negative up to around 8*. The engine is cold and it is 38 degrees here. When normal driving i see anywhere from 38 to 44*. I know its hard to compare 2 trucks especially when i am running e85. Just wasnt sure if the timing should be that low and wanted know a round about base of where it should be. I did email bully dog and waiting to here from them, gonna try and figure out how to a log and have my friend use his snap on scan tool to read the timing and compare.

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Grumpy Bear · January 30, 2018

4 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

I was looking for a bassis of what timing would possibly be at and why would I see a 5-degree timing at idle and then it shot to 15° still at idle.

The basis would be the mapping. It's a computer and does what it's told to do. There is a base map that actually looks much like the fingerprint of a good old fashion distributor without vacuum advance and then the fun begins. It looks at fuel composition (E85 capable) and estimates the (R+M)/2 from that. It looks at the TPS and MAP as well as the BAR and IAT. Each adds or subtracts from the base map in what is called a, "if/or/and" logic and sends a signal to fire as instructed. Then it pauses and listens for the KIR and fine tunes the next pulse and does this many times a second. The system also looks at torque management which pulls timing beyond the mapping for other purposes such as other system torque limits and emissions under certain conditions such as decel. It considers the AFM. I've seen mine range -20 to +52 on gasoline. 87 (R+M)/2

4 hours ago, cmysstailights said:

One thing i have always hated about message boards in the last 20 years are douche people that dont want to answer something simply. And thanks i was able to enjoy the remainder of my day, dont know how i couldnt have with your approval.

The thing that irritates me are people that can't ask a straight question then complain when it's questioned for clarity. Waffle on their questions and then add and subtract attempting to cover holes in their logic or education. You don't need my approval. You need some perspective. When you ask someone for help it's pretty much understood that they know something you don't.

Logic 101 Calling them a douche and acting like you know something you don't is counter productive. Punctuation, spelling and spacing would make it an easier read. Just say'n.

You give away your knowing. Your expecting more timing and your basing that on Octane and don't know that Ethanol has a flame speed roughly 40% faster than gasoline. And what would that do? Take timing out. If you knew this you would have never asked the question. You would have known the answer.

AKNick · January 30, 2018

15 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

The basis would be the mapping. It's a computer and does what it's told to do. There is a base map that actually looks much like the fingerprint of a good old fashion distributor without vacuum advance and then the fun begins. It looks at fuel composition (E85 capable) and estimates the (R+M)/2 from that. It looks at the TPS and MAP as well as the BAR and IAT. Each adds or subtracts from the base map in what is called a, "if/or/and" logic and sends a signal to fire as instructed. Then it pauses and listens for the KIR and fine tunes the next pulse and does this many times a second. The system also looks at torque management which pulls timing beyond the mapping for other purposes such as other system torque limits and emissions under certain conditions such as decel. It considers the AFM. I've seen mine range -20 to +52 on gasoline. 87 (R+M)/2

The thing that irritates me are people that can't ask a straight question then complain when it's questioned for clarity. Waffle on their questions and then add and subtract attempting to cover holes in their logic or education. You don't need my approval. You need some perspective. When you ask someone for help it's pretty much understood that they know something you don't.

Logic 101 Calling them a douche and acting like you know something you don't is counter productive. Punctuation, spelling and spacing would make it an easier read. Just say'n.

You give away your knowing. Your expecting more timing and your basing that on Octane and don't know that Ethanol has a flame speed roughly 40% faster than gasoline. And what would that do? Take timing out. If you knew this you would have never asked the question. You would have known the answer.