Sugar Bears 2015 GMC Terrain SLE-2 2.4 AWD

Grumpy Bear · August 3, 2022

1 hour ago, mikef95 said:

Thanks for the great write-up. I had read through this thread but got a little lost haha.

I honestly have no idea what the engineers were thinking when they designed this motor. I would say this design is a complete failure. I'm not even sure if the oil consumption test applies to years after 2012 or 2013. As far as I know our 2014 and your 2015 wouldn't be eligible for any coverage from GM, which is absolutely ridiculous.

You are welcome.

Yes, this motor has flaws that hinge on criminal IMHO. Not that they make mistakes. That part is human. That they refuse to do right by the customer. Since manufactures of most everything have stopped making products in favor of making money it on us to do the best we can with this horrible situation and their products.

Start your journey. Do your UAO. Enjoy the ride and ask when you have a need. Think of it as a present you are unwrapping. We are not going anywhere.

customboss · August 3, 2022

17 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

No idea what is going on in Europe but in the USA the very definition of Group V is ANYTHING that is DOES NOT CONFORM TO THE STANDARDS OF THE OTHER GROUPS. They don't "Get to Create" a non conforming subclass and call is a plus or plus plus.. That out of the way to the video...

AWESOME!! I understand Estolides and they are as I thought. Just a different Ester functionality with some pretty cool properties. Lowest ANILINE POINT to date. I smiled when he use the aniline point as a proxy for solubility. What is the aniline point of current POA's? One of the highest.

http://www.lube-media.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Lube-Tech090-OilSolublePolyalkyleneGlycols.pdf

Something that I dislike about this sort of infomercial is something we've talked about off list a few times. He ONCE again points to hydrolysis as the Achilles Heel of Polyols (and diesters) and while showing the differences in structure between the two. Yet he, nor does anyone else, provide a case of this happening in a real world fully formulated MODERN PCMO in a healthy motor. He goes to great lengths to explain reverse esterification and waters catalytic influence and drones on about how it is self feeding once started THEN glosses over the FACT this takes more than 1% or TEN THOUSAND PPM to initiate. Is it possible? Yep if you crack a block. This creating problems that don't mean crap in the real world to promote a new product I find very distasteful. That's not even marketing. That's Polyh-Ticing.

One very positive point I zeroed on on was the usefulness of TAN for esters to determine if this is happening. One source mentions a doubling of TAN as a trigger point for trashing the fluid. Other say 1 unit increase. Yet only one lab I'm familiar with test AN ROUTINELY for oils containing ester.

I see your draw to them. Sustainable and moving away from fossil fuel sources. Well, mostly as soon as they figure out the acid side. For now the Lions share.

A down note was the 'off the shelf' add package and admission the result show it to be "over added" which I found silly. Why? In this case he infers it does it's job TOO WELL?

BT quick made engine oils........No, custom tuning an add pack to an engine oil formulation means you are going to override what the 3 main engine oil lubricant makers provide ready made via VGRA. It's what I have said about Redline and MPT among others. THEY USE TOO MUCH organometallic additives most of the time because some twerp told them to. Or they always did it that way. Because we can now custom formulate lower cost estolides bases you don't need the VGRA API bull poop cookie cutter additive loads to a well done formulation. In other words allow the bases to do the work of what additives had to do to counter and stabilize the poor formulations of days past.

A list of API approved GROUPS is now out of date enough it doesn't matter when you can custom blend the ester base. If you are forced into petroleum crap like our gasolines you GOTTA make additives to clean up their mess.

customboss · August 3, 2022

Agreed, Grumpy Bear,! Hydrolytic activity is overblown but if you add in too much of the "good" additives they can become corrosion forming above the normal protective layer of micro corrosion you want in high heat/pressure zones. ZDDP a good example. The ma- informed think that more ZINC is gonna help a older engine design or racing when the active ingredient is PHOSPHORUS...... what does phosphorus do kids in water? How many veterans have seen White Phos ( Willy Pete) in action on metal targets? Or underwater?

Formulating a proper lubricant that fits hand and glove with an IC engine is a balancing act, no need for more than engine can handle nor under treat metallurgy and materials that need certain chemistries. Think of the new veg or renewables as custom tuned additives built into the base lubricant.

Grumpy Bear · August 3, 2022

3 hours ago, customboss said:

Agreed, Grumpy Bear,! Hydrolytic activity is overblown but if you add in too much of the "good" additives they can become corrosion forming above the normal protective layer of micro corrosion you want in high heat/pressure zones. ZDDP a good example. The ma- informed think that more ZINC is gonna help a older engine design or racing when the active ingredient is PHOSPHORUS...... what does phosphorus do kids in water? How many veterans have seen White Phos ( Willy Pete) in action on metal targets? Or underwater?

Formulating a proper lubricant that fits hand and glove with an IC engine is a balancing act, no need for more than engine can handle nor under treat metallurgy and materials that need certain chemistries. Think of the new veg or renewables as custom tuned additives built into the base lubricant.

This is another one of those things that gets blown up by marketing.

True, e-l-e-m-e-n-t-a-l phosphorus goes BOOM in water.

BUT

The Phosphorous in Zinc dithiophosphate is not elemental and not water reactive. In fact it is insoluble in water but is soluble in non polar liquids such as PAO How happy a thing could that be? (is)

ZDDP is a molecule with a zinc phos ratio of roughly 1:1 so ya can't dose one with out the other. Like water is a ratio of 2:1 Hydrogen to Oxygen. Actually a family of longer chain molecules the elements are bound to and all share a pretty close to same 1:1 ratio. 0.94:1 to be precise.

It wasn't even used as a wear additive initially. It was a CORROSION INHIBITOR with some pretty good antioxidant properties. THEN it is a wear add.

First is prevents corrosion then it causes it. Lessens wear then causes it. Next thing you know ZDDP will cause warts and will give your dog fleas. The industry didn't all the sudden 'discover' the evils of ZDDP...it became unrequired at SG dose rates with the advent of roller cams and OHC roller followers. All cutting it back did was save money it two ways.

1.) Use less, cost less

2.) Don't have to maintain the integrity of the power cylinder seal. No amount of ZDDP will harm a cat or O2 if the motor isn't passing HIGH levels of oil into the chamber.

I get it. Estolides have a big future but getting people to buy into it is going to require honesty I don't thing the industry has in it. I know marketing can't manage it.

Each old crow thinks hers the blackest.

The guy in the video made note that he concluded that the cleanliness of the motor PROVED over add. I said it before. Really, it is too clean? All it proved is that Estolides are Great Solvents. Detergents DO NOT CLEAN. The prevent or slow the rate at which it lays down deposits.

IF they actually cleaned how much money could be made on a detergent package that freed stuck rings and unblocked clogged lines? Allot TRIAX S7 ring a bell? Does not work...does it?

customboss · August 4, 2022

Marketing? Not sure why you mix up science with marketing except that marketers have done a really good job in USA confusing all of us with it. Probably ought to take this PM but you highlighted your misunderstanding of my point.....

Elemental P was used for engine oils early on as a sludge remover. Like other forms of elemental P its corrosive to non ferrous alloys and metals..... My point being made without getting into weeds which 0.00001% of the readers here give a flip about.

YES oil soluble phosphorus compounds were initially used for anti-oxidants....primarily; lecithin sourced phosphatide, alkl, aryl phosphites, aluminum and calcium or barium salts of alkyl phosphoric acids.

1944 it was discovered that ZDDP could provide not only anti oxidation but anti wear, some EP capability. WHITE precipitate will form when ZDDP degrades thermally and hydrolitically giving off gases of olefin, alkyl disulfide, and alkyl mercapitan. That white precipitate is a low sulfur containing zinc pyrophosphate.

There is a primary and secondary ZDDP decomposition phase to be understood. It gets deep chemically. Suffice it to say that hydrolysis begins with cleavage of carbon-oxygen bond of the thiophosphate ester, with the hydroxide anion displacing the thiophosphate anion leaving group. Order of hydrolytic stability is primary>secondary> aryl.

There are ashless additives that contain phosphorus compounds neutral alkyl and aryl phosphate esters being the primary additives. TCP and TXP being thought of as natural. In your Euro focused Redline 5w30 you will see synthetic phosphates and isopropylated or tertiarybutlylated phenols to get that ashless effect on bench testing.

So your ZDTP or ZDDP does good things causing a micro corrosive " powder " that lubricates against itself so welding of asperities that penetrate the liquid phase aren't allowed to happen. When adding fuel, combustion blow-by and water ZDDP can break down and become a deposit former.

As far as exhaust risk you are correct a tight ring and valve guide seal allows very little ash forming organo metallics to hit the exhaust stream but it doesn't take much to damage a catalytic converter coating the metals used for catalytic function.

All to say AGAIN AND AGAIN, its not as simple as marketing vs science. The chemistry is complex and not without faults or weak spots.

KARNUT · August 4, 2022

All this getting in the weeds stuff about oil is kinda entertaining. Especially the banter between oil guys. In reality it boils down to the engine, usage, and oil obviously. Slitting hairs may matter in extreme usage like nascar, heavy duty pulling, city driving versus highway. Even masking engine problems with frequent oil changes can extend engine life. I’ve gone as far as 25K miles to 5k oil changes because I evaluated each vehicle separately. In 40 years of lawn tractor usage my average oil change is twice in 10 years with Amsoil. I only mow damp grass. I hate dust. In ten years I get a new one. My last 3 are at my brothers they still run. He doesn’t mind working on them. My 4 vehicles all have different oil change intervals. 10k, trip vehicle highway miles, 5K in town car, 2 once a year under 5K miles. The engine usually is the problem child not the oil. It’s fun banter though, rock on.

Grumpy Bear · August 4, 2022

3 hours ago, customboss said:

All to say AGAIN AND AGAIN, its not as simple as marketing vs science.

Maybe if I use fewer words.

There is what CAN happen and then...there is what DOES happen; for the majority of drivers.

Nothing!

Nothing that matters over a 150K mile legal lifetime or even twice or three times that distance.

MOST of the time CAN is the published results of an extreme testing sequence meant to drive the oil to a failure in the lab. Those conditions DO NOT and ARE NOT part of MOST peoples real world.

MARKETING USES those results to engender the idea that those conditions are not just likely, they are certain. They are not, and they get away with this by omitting all form of reference that would hold them liable.

Why even bring up elemental Phosphorous? Is it part of mainstream current chemistry? Nope. Irrelevant and confusing for the causal readers and has zip to do with Dizzy.

How about you start a Estolide thread in "Off Topic"....cause it is here. I will participate in that thread if you like.

customboss · August 4, 2022

21 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Maybe if I use fewer words.

There is what CAN happen and then...there is what DOES happen; for the majority of drivers.

Nothing!

Nothing that matters over a 150K mile legal lifetime or even twice or three times that distance.

MOST of the time CAN is the published results of an extreme testing sequence meant to drive the oil to a failure in the lab. Those conditions DO NOT and ARE NOT part of MOST peoples real world.

MARKETING USES those results to engender the idea that those conditions are not just likely, they are certain. They are not, and they get away with this by omitting all form of reference that would hold them liable.

Why even bring up elemental Phosphorous? Is it part of mainstream current chemistry? Nope. Irrelevant and confusing for the causal readers and has zip to do with Dizzy.

How about you start a Estolide thread in "Off Topic"....cause it is here. I will participate in that thread if you like.

Majority of auto owners haven't a clue about THE WHY. There are issues which if they ( the consumer knew more about the WHY) they might avoid problems.

Please don't continue to confuse marketing with science discussions. Engineers and scientists test. Marketers market.

That estolide discussion was from a chemistry interested podcast or internet broadcaster who brought in the head formulation scientist for BioSynthetic Technologies.

I brought up elemental phos because YOU DID.

How about thinking before writing in BIG CAPS? I can only respond to what you reply with. I am not prescient you know....

Your Dizzy is better because of scientists attention to detail not because we know less.

Grumpy Bear · August 6, 2022

Last two days I've been busying myself with making CCV orifice plates of varying sizes and testing CC pressures. I noted that when I installed the smaller plate it wept oil around the PCV orifice and when the larger is installed collects some oil above the plate. So something in between. If I can't nail it fairly soon I will buy a mechanical and adjustable PCV that is tuned with a vacuum gauge. For now I selected a size by cut and try that produced a very small negative pressure at 2K rpm without load testing as shown in the TSB.

She is running like a top now and has used little oil over the first 1,600 miles. Couple of ounces instead of a quart.

Grumpy Bear · August 6, 2022

On 8/4/2022 at 2:22 PM, customboss said:

I brought up elemental phos because YOU DID.

I don't think so

On 8/3/2022 at 12:59 PM, customboss said:

ZDDP a good example. The ma- informed think that more ZINC is gonna help a older engine design or racing when the active ingredient is PHOSPHORUS...... what does phosphorus do kids in water? How many veterans have seen White Phos ( Willy Pete) in action on metal targets? Or underwater?

Believe this is the first mention of elemental Phosphorous. You are welcome to go looking but you won't find anywhere I made mention of it or even implied it.

But enough of this. Pointless.

customboss · August 6, 2022

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I don't think so

Believe this is the first mention of elemental Phosphorous. You are welcome to go looking but you won't find anywhere I made mention of it or even implied it.

But enough of this. Pointless.

You write this copied and pasted off your post a few places above ? After I was making a point about phosphorus and its micro corrosive capability. RELAX.......but own your stuff. Just giving a word picture for the readers who don't know as much about chemistry you do.

True, e-l-e-m-e-n-t-a-l phosphorus goes BOOM in water.

BUT

Grumpy Bear · August 6, 2022

5 hours ago, customboss said:

You write this copied and pasted off your post a few places above ? After I was making a point about phosphorus and its micro corrosive capability. RELAX.......but own your stuff. Just giving a word picture for the readers who don't know as much about chemistry you do.

True, e-l-e-m-e-n-t-a-l phosphorus goes BOOM in water.

BUT

Yea we are both wrong. I will admit it. How about you?

Grumpy Bear · August 6, 2022

4:569 in the video

Edited August 6, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

customboss · August 7, 2022

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Yea we are both wrong. I will admit it. How about you?

Yo bro! I’m wrong a lot. Will work on making sure you don’t have to react to my posts using word pictures with caps and dashes between them.
Remember about the military TF crap. I don’t play it.