Sugar Bears 2015 GMC Terrain SLE-2 2.4 AWD

KARNUT · February 27, 2022

I understand that changing oil more often doesn’t hurt. Certainly in cylinder deactivation engines probably a good idea not going over 5k oil changes. The exercise here has proven that changing the oil more often doesn’t fix a bad design. Iv generally go extended and buy vehicles that fit my lifestyle. My 15 Camry that my granddaughter now drives has over 100K miles on 10K oil changes as recommended by Toyota. My CRV has 25K on the same. My wife’s Genesis gets 5K oil changes at 116K. I just read the op last post. He’s back to blaming the oil and his lack of knowledge, as if. I’ve read plenty of articles about this engine, there’re not good it happens. I owned a 5.7 diesel. Some people never had a problem. In this case it’s the engine.

Edited February 27, 2022 by KARNUT

Doublebase · February 27, 2022

38 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Very popular thoughts indeed. (bold type or CAPS is for emphasis. I'm not yelling)

Me? I just don't think luck is a term used in mathematics, chemistry or physics. There is 'probability'. A bag of 100 marbles for example where all but one is black and the last one white. If ten people are allowed to pull ten marbles each the probability of getting that white marble is 1 in 10. The guy that got the white marble isn't lucky or unlucky. He just got a white marble. It's a FACT.

Lets change the conditions or parameters to: A 100 guys are to be allowed to draw one each then the probability of getting that white marble is 1 in a 100. 20 guys odds are now 1 in 5. 2 guys is 50/50.

"Plenty of people" being successful has more to do with the conditions/parameters of use and choices than luck or happenstance.

Design flaw. Yes a condition can be the result of a design flaw OR simply a different design parameter that needs a different regiment in which case you have to CHANGE your thinking on what is workable, useful. The ridged thought.....that is the flaw that causes damage. And in this case the design flaw was ME.

I WHIFFED this motor badly. One of two in my near 70 years of life and I WILL learn the lesson it is trying to pound into my hard head. The other oddly a Toyota

I KNEW that the 7,500 GM OLM suggested interval was CRAP. It was already failing badly enough for GM to be in court over it. Then I ASSUMMED that cutting that to 5,000 and using a LICENSED OIL would PREVENT a condition I KNEW was an issue with THIS motor. I TRUSTED GM to know even after they FAILED AND LIED and that is just insanity on my part.

I did not use the oil that has been successful for me even in GDI motors for 30 years but is not licensed. I did not adhere to my 'cut it (OCI) in half or more' practice. I FAILED to trust my experience and observations. The motor just did what motors do when they don't get what they NEED.

My bad.

So, you’re blaming your maintenance plan?

I would think most engines wouldn’t need 2,500 mile oil changes using an oil like Amsoil or Redline, just to keep it from ruining itself before 100,000 miles, no? Unless there’s an inherent problem associated with the rings or piston itself.

5,000 miles seems like more than reasonable to me based off that it’s shorter than 90% of the manufacturer recommended intervals out there nowadays.

I guess what I’m saying is, 2,500 mile intervals might prevent the engine from failing, but it shouldn’t have to. IMO

customboss · February 27, 2022

Not if you are dumping gasoline into the crankcase at 6.5% or above over any drain interval. No engine oil can handle that much shellac and varnish making ( under heat ) deposits. Not to mention rheological ( fluid dynamics) and chemical damage to the host engine oil.

Grumpy seems to be on the right path but maybe raw fuel is still being introduced intermittently?

Grumpy Bear · February 27, 2022

6 hours ago, Doublebase said:

So, you’re blaming your maintenance plan?

I would think most engines wouldn’t need 2,500 mile oil changes using an oil like Amsoil or Redline, just to keep it from ruining itself before 100,000 miles, no? Unless there’s an inherent problem associated with the rings or piston itself.

5,000 miles seems like more than reasonable to me based off that it’s shorter than 90% of the manufacturer recommended intervals out there nowadays.

I guess what I’m saying is, 2,500 mile intervals might prevent the engine from failing, but it shouldn’t have to. IMO

I always seem to be able to make myself unclear. :nonod:

1.) I wasn't using Red Line OR AMSOIL. I was using Quaker State Ultimate Durability up to the failure point. Then it started using oil like I owned a well I switched to Kirkland Signature and moved back from 5K to 2.5K then 1.5K as it worsened.

So yes I'm blaming my maintenance program.

2.) We bought this thing on the understanding that the 2014 and newer models had had these issues resolved. GM LIED. The have a defective piston/oil ring situation which is a combination of low tension and inadequate oil drain back area. Something Jasper actually addresses in there short and long block replacements increasing drain back area 300% with a standard tension ring. Their FIX was a new timing chain tensioner (also a problem) AND reduction of of the OLM maximum from 10K miles to 7.5K miles. (Later flowed in a shop memo to 5K) An increase in warranty period to 150K or 6 years BUT ONLY IF IT USED MORE THAN A QUART IN 2K miles. The continue to use the same defective parts to manufacture new motors and they STILL use these defective parts in warranty work. They have a kick the can down the road approach. Now? They discontinue the motor.

So yes 5,000 miles with the factory piston/ring is STILL to long for the licensed oils.

3.) I UNDERESTIMATED the effect of the new motor mount and low vibration block castings has on the ability to FEEL a misfire and the UNDERESTIMATED the number of misfires it would take to set off a CEL. I had an ignition fault that went unnoticed and uncorrected for tens of thousands of miles. These PCM setting do keep motors out of warranty work but destroy the motor.

Thus 6.5%+ fuel and a carbon/shellac plugged PCV ORIFICE and ring pack.

6 hours ago, customboss said:

Grumpy seems to be on the right path but maybe raw fuel is still being introduced intermittently?

Perhaps. We have another round of pump checks on Wednesday. That said I'm inclined to believe that this raw fuel is migration past the rings. I just took sample today will have GC fuels run.

Doublebase · February 27, 2022

22 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I always seem to be able to make myself unclear.

1.) I wasn't using Red Line OR AMSOIL. I was using Quaker State Ultimate Durability up to the failure point. Then it started using oil like I owned a well I switched to Kirkland Signature and moved back from 5K to 2.5K then 1.5K as it worsened.

So yes I'm blaming my maintenance program.

2.) We bought this thing on the understanding that the 2014 and newer models had had these issues resolved. GM LIED. The have a defective piston/oil ring situation which is a combination of low tension and inadequate oil drain back area. Something Jasper actually addresses in there short and long block replacements increasing drain back area 300% with a standard tension ring. Their FIX was a new timing chain tensioner (also a problem) AND reduction of of the OLM maximum from 10K miles to 7.5K miles. (Later flowed in a shop memo to 5K) An increase in warranty period to 150K or 6 years BUT ONLY IF IT USED MORE THAN A QUART IN 2K miles. The continue to use the same defective parts to manufacture new motors and they STILL use these defective parts in warranty work. They have a kick the can down the road approach. Now? They discontinue the motor.

So yes 5,000 miles with the factory piston/ring is STILL to long for the licensed oils.

3.) I UNDERESTIMATED the effect of the new motor mount and low vibration block castings has on the ability to FEEL a misfire and the UNDERESTIMATED the number of misfires it would take to set off a CEL. I had an ignition fault that went unnoticed and uncorrected for tens of thousands of miles. These PCM setting do keep motors out of warranty work but destroy the motor.

Thus 6.5%+ fuel and a carbon/shellac plugged PCV ORIFICE and ring pack.

Perhaps. We have another round of pump checks on Wednesday. That said I'm inclined to believe that this raw fuel is migration past the rings. I just took sample today will have GC fuels run.

GM did lie, they always do.

My point is, your oil is specified for a GM product, it’s Dexos approved. It should easily be able to do a 5,000 mile interval in a 7,500 recommendation. And that’s the problem. GM lied. They built a product with oil ring returns too small, and tension too light...in a direct injection vehicle to boot!! Their fault. Not yours. Not your oil.

GM lies like a rug, always have always will. Their “fix” to their noisy intermediate steering shafts 15 years ago was for us (I used to work on GM’s) to remove the shaft and stroke it 15 times, which in theory moves the wax around, and then reinstall. Customer would be back three weeks later. They were the ones getting stroked. Finally GM bit the bullet and replaced the shafts. It’s what they do. Lie, cut corners.

When I mentioned the Redline and Amsoil, I was picturing you trying to fix this problem with a boutique oil, on short intervals. Or prevent this problem, I should say. And maybe it would. It would also cost you over the life of a vehicle almost as much as a new engine, compared to being able to do a 7,500 mile intervals on a dexos licensed oil (which GM is telling/lying to customers that it can do/should do). Engine life to 200,000 miles x oil changes every 2,000 miles x using Amsoil at $80 bucks x 100 oil changes = $8,000 dollars. VS $810 bucks doing 7,500 mile intervals using Quaker State Ultimate Durability over the course of 200,000 miles.

I probably screwed that math up a bit. Give or take a few hundred. But if GM didn’t lie and screw this up, that’s what one should reasonably expect out of a an engine. 200,000 miles, 7,500 mile intervals, using an off the shelf readily available licensed Dexos approved oil and filter.

Grumpy Bear · February 28, 2022

On 2/27/2022 at 5:52 PM, Doublebase said:

My point is, your oil is specified for a GM product, it’s Dexos approved. It should easily be able to do a 5,000 mile interval in a 7,500 recommendation. And that’s the problem. GM lied. They built a product with oil ring returns too small, and tension too light...in a direct injection vehicle to boot!! Their fault. Not yours. Not your oil.

Ah!! I see your point and your point....I agree with. Whew! Thanks Mike.

Buick still is going to get really short OCI's on really great oil. More convinced now than ever. Again, thanks.

Last point on graph is the projected 2 point polynomial for current cycle usage with a confidence of R2=1. Still above anything GM would do anything about it.

I noted in the video you tagged that the motor in the video was using 3 QUARTS per THOUSAND.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · March 2, 2022

3/1/2022 Service Notes:

Oil sample drawn and sent to Synthetic Advantage Lab. Which brings me to a paradigm shift when it comes to oil consumption. In the past I have offered here several times oil usage based on a projection of make up added at OCI end. Which would go something like I used 4 ounces in 1,000 miles so it uses a quart in 8,000 miles and I've been using a bar chart to give the visual. Well.....doesn't work that way; as this new graph clearly shows oil consumption is not a linear activity. This a a 'Scatter Chart' with a 2 point polynomial trendline, math shown in inset.

After gathering two points past zero the equation will find the point were one quart is consumed. What's the double check you ask? Using the graph to PREDICT the next oil makeup volume and where in miles. Today at 1860 miles on the OCI I added exactly 3 ounce of make up to reach full just as it predicted.

Sadly this means I eat some crow in scrapping the first model and loose about 20 OCI's data as junk data. About 40K miles worth of data and this pleases me.

This OCI's oil consumption is a quart in 2,690 miles at an oil usage rate of 0.174% of fuel. 248% over 'normal' maximum.

I will start the bar graph with this data point.

Here's what we learn. A 1K mile OCI would consume at a rate of a quart in 6,400 miles but allowing the OCI to go to only 2,690 miles it would use a full quart in that interval. 237% more oil past the rings. CAT KILLER This is viscosity break at work and it will repeat this as often as I would like to run it. Fuel dilutions reduction of viscosity is progressive and can be quantified by the formula in the graphs inset.

Now we get to use this more refined data process to track work and success of oil consumption mitigation. COOL!!

Edited March 19, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · March 2, 2022

161,000 Mile Service

3/2/2022

161,000 actual

1,935 miles this OCI

16 ounces of make up oil. 0.167% of fuel.

4 Quarts 20 ounces Kirkland 5W30

12 Ounces TRIAX S-7 (see note below)

No filter this time.

Yes looks odd. Whatever Snap-On instrument the shop uses was broken and cost is huge. Will take some time. A day. A week. Who knows but the oil needed changing. Using up ends and odds in a motor that I pour it in and it pours it out.

Grumpy Bear · March 4, 2022

161,300 Mile Services

3/4/2022

40 miles into the last oil change I charged 1 pint of Kano Products Kreen internal engine cleaner.

161,300 Actual

300 mile OCI

5 Quarts and small change of Valvoline Cummins Restore 10W30

1 NAPA Gold oil filter ( I had it, I skipped the last filter change)

The above oil Brand change on advice of counsel based on most recent UOA which I will share later after my graphic department (wife) gets it loaded.

Grumpy Bear · March 5, 2022

UOA Results

The new PCV system design is working very well.

Water down 38% and >500 ppm. Can it still improve?

Fuel is still very high but lower. 11% lower. You can see in the viscosity the effect of that fuel dilution.

Wear metals. Increase in iron and aluminum. But IR numbers, oxidation, nitration and so on very good. So combustion has improved with all the ignition upgrades.

We have confirmed the fuel side is leak free and fuel trims dead on. But fuel continues to dilute the oil. What's left then is a stuck ring or two allowing fuel and combustion water by and it shows in power cylinder wear.

The Kano-Kreen was my call while I waited on these results. The Cummins Restore chemistry is counsels recommendation and as I generally listen to the experts I pay so it shall be.

Kreen is NOT like any internal engine cleaner I have ever used in a crankcase. Not BG ERP or GUNK or Seafoam or blah blah blah. I used it per label directions for a maintenance dose of 3 ounces per quart on a FULL charge. A pint. They want it crank whipped. My garage will smell like this stuff forever. It DID NOT do the purge charge.

How do I know it did anything in only 260 miles? Glad you asked. I got more out than I put in by about 10 ounces and no, that wasn't gasoline. Stuff I drained was Diesel oil 50K mile JET BLACK. That was my first clue. The second more convincing. This is suppose to hold 5 US quarts. I have had to hold back 6 ounces to prevent overfilling it. After the internal cleaning 5 US quarts left is four ounces short of full. 10 ounce difference. Done and Dun. It removed 10 ounces of trouble. Added a double dose of Techron to a full tank.

I charged the KREEN then ran it for almost 4 hours down I-39 then let it sit overnight to hot soak. Today I ran to 161,300 then dumped it hot, changed the filter and charged the Cummins RESTORE. 5 Quarts and 4 ounces. Then I took it out again for another 250 miles. First test mark was still on full. It always starts this way.

This will not be 1K OCI's. This is charge and add until it's cured or dead sampling as observation and direction dictate.

So far, so good.

Grumpy Bear · March 10, 2022

Okay, confession time and I hate the part where I feel/look and did something insanely STUPID. :crackup:

Had a light bulb moment doing errands today. It has a wire rope and bullet dipstick so being overfull is a blind guess by how much. The Kreen cleaning netted 10 ounces of crap more than I charged in roughly 250 miles of flushing. That was measured. I mentioned I think that when I charged the full five quarts of RESTORE right after that it did not come up to the full mark and that amount short was 4 ounces. Hold that thought. My drive is on a slight incline which apparently is the equivalent of.....4 ounces. 3* slope.

In the past when dirty (before cleaning) it showed full on the incline and on the flat. Sure it did! It was six ounces OVERFULL which means???

There was a reason that it LOOKED like it wasn't using any oil for 750 to 1000 miles. It's how long it took to use 10 ounces UNNOTICED. You can't see how overfull overfull is on a wire rope. :idiot: Then because I did my fills and checks on the drive I KEPT it 4 ounces over full FORCING it to consume at a greater rate.

So to double check this I took out my inclination meter (phone) and under the hood is a cover that is level when the truck is sitting on the level. (Chassis has a 3* frame rake). I measured the angle while on the drive and checked level. Down 4 ounces. Drove to a spot that I know is level and measured both the angle and the level. Guess what? It was full. Repeated several times while doing errands today. BOOM!!!!!

It's not holding oil. IT's CLEANED OUT and I'm seeing, finally, what normal looks like.

So why did I never notice before? Ah!! Shop, until recently did the oil changes (since new) and my checks were when I fueled. Me being picky about level when fueling keep the decline in cleanliness from me. My service guy didn't notice as they charge from bulk in unmeasured free pours until it gets to the full mark.

Feel free to laugh your butt off. :rolleyes:

I should have seen this in the UOA. Why? Because the thought was that viscosity break was delaying oil consumption until it reached some critical point. The reason I tried the 5W40 was to delay, slow or even stop that. When the result came back in grade for a heavy 30W AND I got the same usage pattern that should have raise a red flag.

Changed the filter at 1K miles. Have added 4 ounces in 1350 miles so far...... A few lost, at least, in the filter change.

So far. So good.

Grumpy Bear · March 14, 2022

1750 Mile Oil Usage

3/14/2022

163,065 miles

1,765 this OCI (Last OCI used 14 ounces by this mileage) Progress?

4 ounces total make up oil added at 1,350 miles. None since and still full.

This is interesting. The last six tanks are on this OCI. Cummins Valvoline Restore 10W30

That first peak at 29.9 mpg was on the last tank while Kano-Kreen was running in Krirkland 5W30.

That last dip to 23 mpg was the resumption of inordinate oil usage.

There is allot of graphical compression here as it is 23K miles of history over the last year. Then general trend is seasonal but the sharp deviations are breather/ring issues. That's the six tightest tanks in years.

Grumpy Bear · March 19, 2022

2,000 Mile Oil Usage

3/19/2022

163,302 miles actual

Orange line is previous OCI. Blue line the current run.

The first segment of the orange line represents 200 miles/oz of oil. The second segment 104/oz

Stuck rings and the UOA showed that in elevated iron and aluminum.

First segment of blue line then is 169/oz and the second 270/oz on RESTORE. Quite an improvement.

If you remember I over added 4 ounces on the initial fill in error, so that amount I've added to this corrected record.

Interesting that the first point falls directly on the previous OCI's line. More interesting is how the rate has slowed between adds significantly. She's sealing up.

(data points are cumulative amount added)

Fuel Log up close

Red dots Restore

Edited March 20, 2022 by Grumpy Bear

customboss · March 19, 2022

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

2,000 Mile Oil Usage

3/19/2022

163,302 miles actual

Orange line is previous OCI. Blue line the current run.

The first segment of the orange line represents 200 miles/oz of oil. The second segment 104/oz

Stuck rings and the UOA showed that in elevated iron and aluminum.

First segment of blue line then is 169/oz and the second 325/oz on RESTORE. Quite an improvement.

If you remember I over added 4 ounces on the initial fill in error, so that amount I've added to this corrected record.

Interesting that the first point falls directly on the previous OCI's line. More interesting is how the rate has slowed between adds significantly. She's sealing up.

(data points are cumulative amount added)

Fuel Log up close

Red dots Restore

Better living through chemistry

Grumpy Bear · March 21, 2022

Breather Detail

3/20/2022

I mentioned this baffle when I did this upgrade but did not provide a photo. This is that.

Nothing fancy. Just whittled it out of some sheet stock and the drill press.

Did I mention this is with the motor running?

When I first installed it removing the cap with the motor running blew the baffle out.

It's how I would remove it for top offs.

:crackup:

Wait!!

What?

The rings have seated?

Cool!

Now I have to use a pick to remove it. @customboss wanted a look at the tie in. There ya go. Into the brake booster vacuum line. And no...my throttle body isn't dripping oil.

Usage has leveled off to about a quart in 12,000 miles and fuel efficiency has continued to increase. We went on a 250 mile jaunt today on primary highways mostly running 53 to 55 mph. Right at the speed limit and it returned a fine 29.2 mpg on the way out into the wind. On the return home 31 mpg with winds favoring us. Feels spunky now. Oil usage is still more than I would like to see and higher by a bit than engineering standards but will improve as fuel efficiency and varnish removal continue. Drain downs takes way to long for a fuel stop. :nonod:

We just cleared a hurdle but not the finish line.

We'll keep pounding on her.

May buy another case of this stuff.

2,500 miles on this OCI.

Patients Grasshopper.