Grumpy Bears 2015 Silverado 2WD

Grumpy Bear · January 3, 2021

This is my list of PAO/Ester motor oils.

First three in order of initial cost. Most expensive to least.

MPT Thirty K

Red Line HP

Mobil 1 ESP LV

AMSOIL SS

Mobil 1 ESP LV

Penrite has but two North American sources

SYNLUBE has but one

Penrite available in *W50 and *W60

SYNLUBE in 0W20 and 5 or 10 W50

PENRITE

SYNLUBE

These guys are loud and proud. Pretty much tell you anything you'd like to know. No hiding.

https://mptindustries.com/product-category/thirty-k-full-synthetic-high-performance-motor-oils/

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NOTE: Mobil 1 ESP IS NOT the same as Mobil 1 ESP LV. The LV meets the MB229.6 (Mercedes Benz) specs

The ESP meets MB226.5, an earlier standard.

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		Volatility	Deposits	ZDDP
Year	SPEC	NOACK	ASTM 6335	Phosphorus
1996	SH	25%	N/A	1200 ppm
1997	SJ	17%	60 mg	1000 ppm
2001	SL	15%	45 mg	1000 ppm
2004	SM	15%	35 mg	800/600 ppm
2010	SN	15%	35 mg	800/600 ppm
2018	SN +	15%	30 mg	800/600 ppm
2020	SP	15%	30 mg	800/600 ppm
2011	DEXOS1	13%	30 mg	800/600 ppm
2018	DEXOS1 GEN2	13%	30 mg	800/600 ppm
TBD	DEXOS1 GEN3	12.5%	TBD	800/600 ppm
2019	MB229.6	<10%	N/A	1100/500 ppm

Compare AMSOIL SS 5W30 6.7% 7 mg 728 ppm (from VOA)

Red Line HP 5W30 6.0% 30 mg 1076 ppm (from VOA)

MPT Thirty-K 5WA30 5.4% 5 mg 1198 ppm (from VOA)

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Edited January 4, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · January 4, 2021

10W30 / Oil Rant

HTHS TBN NOACK CCS

MPT 30-K 3.10 12.5 8.3 5201 (@ -31F/-35C) (This is a 0W30 for reference only)

MPT 30-K 3.20 12.5 6.2 4016 (@ -22 F/-30C ) (This is a 5W20 for reference only)

MPT 30-K 3.90 12.5 5.4 3999 (@ -22 F/-30C ) (This is a 5W30 for reference only)

MPT 30-K 4.00 12.5 4.0 3520 (@ -13F/-25C )

AMSOIL SS 3.11 12.5 4.1 4278 (@ -13F/-25C )

Red Line HP 3.50 10.2 6.0 5000 (@ -13F/-25C )

Mobil 1 EP 3.22 8.5 7.5 4742 (@ -13F/-25C )

QSUD 3.05 8.5 8.8 4130 (@ -13F/-25C )

Pennzoil 3.10 8.5 11.8 6200 (Conventional Group II @ -13F/-25C )

SAE 20W 2.60

SAE 30 2.90

SAE 40 3.5

SAE 50/60 3.7

SAE 10 @-25C 7000

SAE SP 15

DEXOS1Gen2 13

Checking the record books I note that in my area the temperature has ranged from -27F to 105F. No one SAE viscosity grade will cover that in any conventional oil nor in MOST "Full Synthetics" and still provide adequate wear protection. Both ends of the range are important.

CCS:

Most wear occurs on a cold/dry start so CCS values are important. It's also important to note that the spec varies based on the lower number of a multi-grade oil. More noteworthy is the fact that the SAE maximums are very high for their temperature of test.

HTHS:

This is a funny one. What does viscosity under these conditions have to do with wear protection? Nope, not film thickness. There are many areas of the motor that operate in the boundary or mixed film regions that are under extremely high pressures and high temperature. Cam components and wrist pins come to mind as do compression rings. This has more to do with leakage from areas that rely solely on hydrodynamic film retention. Main, cam and rod bearings. Oil gets to thin the pump can't keep up with the leakage. You know this. Old motors get rod knock because? Clearances increased past the pumps ability to keep up. So...how cool is it that there are synthetics in the 20W range with the HTHS exceeding that of a 30W an 30W's with HTHS of a 60W?

Other:

Something that has been a little murky is becoming quite clear. This has to do with the temperature of thermal degradation onset. Allot of the information published on this has to do with the base oil in its natural state. Unhindered! Used primarily for marketing. This is not the Thin Film Oxygen Uptake Test, ASTM 4742. That test measures the anti-oxidant breakdown time which is important but does not give the point of initiation. That test, depending on report is either 284 F or 304 F in minutes to depletion. Yea, minutes! Group III's tap out between 100 and 400 minutes.

Unhindered we get numbers like

Limits:

Group 1 200 F

Group 2 225 F

Group 3 250 F

PAO 275 F

POE 300 F

Thing is with an antioxidant package a Group III can make to 300 F! CAN is a huge word here. RAT540 is the only one testing and publishing 'hindered' numbers presently that I know of. Even within the same 'Brand' those numbers vary greatly.

Mobil 1 products for instance range among test products, 255 F for their DEXOS licensed 5W30 to 290 F for the Advanced Fuel Economy 0W30.

What this means is a Group III while it can reach the same values relies on the antioxidant package to do what a POA does naturally AND THERE IS A CLOCK TICKING on its effectiveness in doing so. Mobil 1 Super Syn tapped out in under 400 minutes on the ASTM 4742. 6.67 hours.

Your oil pan temp may show 225 F but the mains and rods are running 75 to 90 F higher or 300 F to 315F.

There is no such thing as a forever oil. Current range of initiation temps reported range 210 F to 300 F. Most Group III's seem to span the 250F - 290F mark hindered. BUT times run as low as 132 minutes.

What does that mean? More marketing garbage. A Group III can meet the DEXOS1GEN2 spec and have so little reserve chemistry as to make even a 5K OCI impractical.

machinerylubrication.com offers this:

Engine oil Antioxidants

Currently, the most commonly used primary antioxidants are the phenolic, phenates, salicylates and amine types; the secondary antioxidants are usually sulfur or metal-containing additives. Once the antioxidant additives are depleted, the base oil is more vulnerable to oxidation.

You ever see those numbers included in a UOA or a VOA?

GrumpyGhost · January 12, 2021

I was just about to update my build thread about my low oil pressure and remembered you posted in mine so I decided to check yours out......

......To my surprise........I went to college for automotive engineering but have since switched careers to an electrician so automotive is more of a hobby than I would like it to be right now(studying for electrical license). But reading your "oil rant" made me go and find my old reference books so I could refresh my memory on this subject a bit.

Honestly I enjoyed going through trying to remember all the chemistry references and the ASTM tests which in college I actually got to do some of those tests. Im by no means an expert but I am forgetting a lot as I just found out going through these.

After opening the bottom of my engine and seeing the carnage I wanted to go and look at these books but it was this post that got me to do it!

Anyhow it was refreshing to see such detail and my head also hurts now! Lol

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Grumpy Bear · January 31, 2021

January 2021 Fuel Report

Pepper has been resting since late December.

Only a few days has she been without eighteen inches of white winter blanket.

Zero days have the roads been without a nice coating of salt. No thank you.

This will reflect well on the yearly and lifetime fuel average.

We just had a new heavy snow last night. Keeps this up and it may be April before she leaves the drive again.

Grumpy Bear · February 26, 2021

February 2021 Fuel Report

Another month of down time. We have had several days of above freezing temperatures with more in the forecast so the winter blanket that covered her is gone...for now. Lund Soft rollup bed cover will take a huge amount of snow. Battery still has juice!! Best get the Battery Tender on her, eh?

Grumpy Bear · March 21, 2021

3/20/2021

133,333 miles

Gassed up today and my heart stopped with I checked the oil. On the 20 mile trip home I remembered that I had not drained back the bottles from the last oil change AND I still had them in a box in the box. Six bottles recovered a bit over 9 ounces or about 1/3 of a quart. Put it back over the full mark. I always ask for the bottles to be returned for this reason.

We did our Sunday drive today. Mrs. saw smoke on the horizon and wanted to know what was burning. They were burning a field.....50 miles north of where she saw it originally. Good thing the truck gets decent mileage. :sigh:

Knowing how much I HATE driving in the city we took the back roads to COSTCO, following her directions. right through the fifth circle of Donte's Inferno. She thinks she's funny. She is.

Grumpy Bear · March 28, 2021

Peppers 6L80E Service Record to Date.

1/17/2017 50,000 Drop and fill, new WIX filter. 6 quarts Red Line D6 (50/50) Fluid was no longer red but not burnt.

Fluid temps in the 225 F range on hot days unladen. Oxidation evident and obvious. No shift quality issues observed.

3/30/2018 Thermostat delete. 50F cooler

7/24/2018 70,000 Install new PML 8 quart pan, 8 quarts Red Line D6 (79/21) 180 F water stat. Trans runs cooler yet.

10/16/2018 80,000 miles 8 quart Red Line D6 drain and fill. (90/10)

6/2/2019 Installed 170 F water stat and now under 165F on the hottest days. Above 104F on the coldest. Perfect.

8/25/2020 125,000 miles. 8 quart Red Line D6 drain and fill. (96/4) that is (95.5% PAO/POE, 4.5% Group III factory fill)

Goals met:

1.) More fluid volume. 2.) Lower operating temperatures. 3.) Full conversion to PAO/POE fluid.

To do list:

1.) Bypass filter system. 2.) Some sort of temperature moderation system to raise winter temps and keep a cap on summer temps. Maybe a combination of pan heater and ancillary cooler with lower aftermarket thermostat and fan. Still researching.

3.) Some mild trans tuning.

March 2021 Fuel Report

952 miles on 36 gallons = 26.45 mpg which is also the 2021 year to date data.

Life time average 27.65 mpg.

2019 peak came on 0W20 and a hot long summer and mild winter.

2020 we moved to 10W30.

She responds correctly to every move.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · March 31, 2021

Edited March 31, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · March 31, 2021

An Oils Base matters with regard to bulk oil temperatures.

Had this chart up a long time ago but time to revisit it. I started thinking about this again after listening to Lake Speed Jr. talking about rings and ring width and its effects on power and oil/water temperature. (Total Seal Corp). Ring friction is 40% of the engines friction and the single highest component percentage. They have a video on this that is very much worth the watching.

This chart shows three components. Water temperature as controlled by the thermostat, RPM as controlled by road speed and the oils friction as controlled by base oil type and additive packages. When I collected the data for this I had not as yet tested AMSOIL but have found it to be darn near identical to the Red Line HP for running bulk oil temperatures. Some time after collecting this data and quite by accident I found the correlation between oil temperature and rpm to be more of a function of the rpm and not the load as road speed increased provide the only additional load is speed. Okay with that in mind:

1.) For any given thermostat oil temperature will remain some constant above the water temperature for any given load and rpm. For instance, at 55 mph oil temperature will be about 20 F warmer than water temperature no matter what thermostat you use but it may be 40 F warmer that water at 70 mph for all thermostats. UNTIL the capacity of the cooling system is matched and exceeded.

2.) You want to see some high oil temperatures try running 55 mph in third gear for 20 minutes. I can't imagine pulling max loads up a 10% grade for miles at near peak rpm.

3.) WHAT oil you use matters. Isolate the three oils tested with the 180 F water thermostat. That would be the three center lines. Quaker State UD, Mobil 1 and Red Line. All 5W20 oils.

4.) Not on this chart is the data I collected using 5W30 which in THIS motor ran a few degrees warmer. No it doesn't always work out like that. My contact at Red Line explained that if a lighter oil reduces heat then it is still thick enough to prevent direct contact and temperatures fall due to lower fluid friction. If the temperatures rise with the lower vis the film has ruptured.

5.) As Red Line and AMSOIL produce the same temperature profile we can eliminate the boat load of moly in the Red Line as the source of reduction. Yes it matters but less than the base oil.

6.) Stacking can take as much heat out of the motor as an oil cooler. Moderate road speed + lower water stat + right base oil selection. 45 F in Peppers case.

Grumpy Bear · March 31, 2021

Motor Break In

I can't believe there is not a dedicated thread on this topic. Lot's of stray threads skirting it but....

Shaver Specialty has a video on breaking in a 410 CID 800+ HP motor with Lake Speed Jr from Total Seal. Yak Yak Yak.

What was useful for breaking in an OEM street motor? No matter the motors purpose the rings will not seal without some pressure behind them which means a load will have to be applied in the form of gas pressure and measured by the metric called brake mean effective pressure or BMEP. In that video they do the "Initial" break in at 3,000 RPM and what the dyno operator called a specified load of 175 lbs/ft applied for 30 minutes. Then they do three full power runs. Well come back to that.

Okay lets break this down. The actual 'break in' was during that 30 minute period they say is "critical", warning that this can not happen at idle and a load must be applied to get the heat to activate the ZDDP and the load to 'wear' the peaks off the mountains. The load they choose at Shaver is 175 lb/ft at 3,000 rpm and this was a 410 cid 800 hp ++ motor, 6.7 liters.

BMEP = 150.8 * Torque / CID or in this case (150.8 *175) / 410 or 64.4 psi BMEP is the 'average" cylinder pressure. It can actually be read directly if the cylinder is fitted with a pressure probe as knock motors are. This equals about a 100 delivery from this motor or less than 1/8 th of its peak. Technically BMEP is only truly accurate at peak torque rpm. However if you watch the video you will notice that the motor is indicating just under 100 hp at this load. So close enough for the hair splitters. That kids is not allot of load.

Pepper uses TODAY on flat ground an no wind about 30 hp and turns about 1350 rpm at 55 mph. The OEM specific recommendation for break in. Running that down this 4.3 liter motor has a BMEP of 67.2 psi BMEP. Higher that that of the dyno break in used at Shavers.

Shavers also details that during the 30 minutes the load needs to be varied. If you've ever had a torque app on your motor you know that running down the road gives more variation in load than they do in a dyno break in even if you don't vary your speed. Just the undulation of the terrain will accomplish that feat for you.

But what you might say about getting some heat in the motor? There is more than enough 'tightness' in a new motor to supply all the heat required. In fact an OEM motor is much tighter than a race motor.

So lets get back to the three hard passes to the red line than show a small but measurable gain in power said to indicate 'completing the process".

Yea okay lets give that a look. If it is pressure and heat your after the highest cylinder pressure and maximum heat is generated at???????????????? Peak TORQUE RPM not peak power. Pulls past peak torque or 4100 rpm in my case serve not real purpose. The few, and I mean few hp they gained were not that of a motor getting a better seal but a more that is wearing is...lower friction.

The OEM recommends 500 miles and at a USA average 55 mph 9 hours break in. Why? Motor is built tighter than a race motor.

Deutz, Volvo and few others give 250 hours as the completion of break in. For me, break in is complete when the fuel efficiency peaks. At that point wear starts to degrade the motor. Peppers lifetime average is still climbing.

No need to drive it like you stole it. What that will do is enhance the possibility of a cylinder 'glazing'. Heating oil to the varnish point filing in those carefully hones in oil voids the motor depends so much on to seal. The reason for the lower load initial 'break in' which is really THE break in.

Does this sound like I disagree with these guys? I don't think so if your really LISTEN.

Grumpy Bear · April 1, 2021

Cam Timing and Effective Compression Ratio.

A motors ability to make zero knock power is limited by the fuels AKI, octane. It will only take so much cylinder pressure.

Ecotec3 4.3 has a cam timing of 193/198 on a 113* center line. Installed straight up that gives a IVC angle of 29.5* using Summit Racing timing calculator. I got lazy. The motor has an 11.0:1 mechanical compression ratio.

Plugging this into Wallace Racings ECR calculator along with other physicals it spits out that this motor has roughly an ECR of 9.1, with the cam straight up and the VVT neutral. The ability of the VVT to advance the cam retarding the IVC raising ECR and adjust timing / fuel makes the average pump E85 possible with its AKI of 94-96.

I love to crunch the numbers and most of the time the OEM just nails it.

Source for graph Daytona Sensors AKI Octane

Grumpy Bear · April 5, 2021

Still in a State of Refinement

Running average is just below 28 mpg. As you can see by the deviation bars there is allot of dark gray above the running average compared to the light gray below it. Meaning???? Life time MPG is still on the rise!

Last year I opted to start using 10W30 for 2020 over the 2019 record years 0W20 to improve protection and did pay a penalty in fuel economy of about 3% or 1 mpg. 1.5% lower than the previous record of 2018 using 5W30 by 1.5% or 1/2 mpg. Good trade! I also opted to run fewer miles during the coldest months of the year. Another good trade raising the bottom of the winter trough about 2 mpg falling just below 29 mpg. This has allowed a slightly higher average road speed. Something my wife likes not having my cast iron patients. As much as she complains my average is still above hers, 42 mph vs 36 mph, although her normal driving speed is ALLOT higher. She hasn't figured out 'seat time' trumps raw speed yet.

Grumpy Bear · April 20, 2021

4/20/2021

Somewhere in another thread I made a comment on HTHS as it pertains to Fuel Efficiency vs Wear Rate.

https://www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/commercial-vehicles/striking-the-right-balance/

When you've read this article remember that additives used to do what the base use to do has a very finite lifespan. Additives get used up.

https://360.lubrizol.com/2014/Treat-Rates

Treat rates are for the first time being increased as they loose the handle as HP/L (horsepower per liter) climbs.

And yet I get scorned for saying so..... :crackup:

Every time there is an improvement in some area they take that improvement away and then some.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · April 26, 2021

135,000 Mile Services

4/25/2021

135,177 Miles actual

5,037 this OCI

6 Quarts AMSOIL SS 10W30 + Purolator Pure One PL22500. No measurable oil consumption.

Tire rotation. Tire pressure adjustment. Brake check, caliper slides, thickness etc. Still have plenty left.

Gumout Regane Complete treated tank/injectors for 26 gallons.

Routine.

Grumpy Bear · April 30, 2021

4/29/2021

A few days ago spent around 3 hours detailing the interior. Still looks like new. I still have interior glass to day and behindd the seat.

Yesterday spent around two hours detailing under hood. Looks really REALLY nice and yet there are a few things I'd like to do that I need an order to do. Cerakote all the plastic covers. Armor All the hoses and wiring wraps. Remove some injection flash from things like the window washer bottle that collects dirt. Grease and lube latches and hinges. I had been using Meguiars Back to Black and it does a great job but....doesn't last as long as I would like it to. Cleaning and detailing the grill and it too needs some Cerakote love. Today I tackled the bed liner and rubber matt. Vacuum and a stiff brush. I don't like mud so no...no water. This spring Doves decided the black tonneau cover would be a nice warm place to sit and crap. My question is how did they get crap inside a covered box??? :dunno: I had two furniture blankets in sealed bags in the bag for whatever. Both soaked and molding. YUCK!

Under hood I use a dry method before soap and water. Vacuum and brushes. The tool kit for the mini vacuum I bought has some crazy neat attachments that allow me to get into spaces and places I would have to otherwise disassemble. Then Dawn and water and microfiber rags. We use to have to clean, strip and wax the control room of the refinery on Sundays. Our head operator was a retired WWII Navy photographer. His idea of clean... rinse water comes back as clean as it was drawn to the bucket. That is quite a few buckets under a hood.

This week I had her do some actual work. Haul a dryer home which while unloading I scuffed that black plastic that covers the top of the tailgate. I repaired that today as well. White Scotch Brite. Yea, not suppose to be abrasive but on something that soft it removed the 'knits and pearls' plastic gets when treated to a good rub. I even had the gate covered with a furniture blanket and still....

This is all part of the annual spring clean and repair I do each year and each year it gets a bit harder to bring it back to showroom as things age. Mostly the plastic parts. I HATE plastic parts. And yet.... Gold!! Love this truck.

Just ordered Cerakote Trim Coat Kit. $30.90 with shipping. YIKES! This better be good

Late note. Thought I had broke a tailgate bushing. Didn't know these things have a easy off tailgate. Thus the lock. LOL Still learning new things all the time about this truck. Bushing was fine and is quite different than the ones on You Tube for the 'Soft Close' versions. GOOD!!!

Edited April 30, 2021 by Grumpy Bear
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