Proud to be an American

[Jsdirt]

Hear Hear, Cliff.

 

The downward spiral of society continues on.

 

I've seen some hope in SOME of the younger generation, however. One of my best friends raised some real great kids. Gives me hope for the future - this part of the USA needs all the hope we can muster ...

[Doug Rosewood]

 

Well, we kicked God out of our schools. We kicked God out of government. We have kicked God out of our national dialogue. We have just about kicked God out of our entire national existence, and then we want God to bless the USA. Tough sell. It wasn't all that long ago, President Franklin Roosevelt (a Democrat no less!) actually led the nation in prayer on D-Day, June 6, 1944 in a live broadcast. Can you imagine that happening today? Oh, the outrage that would ensue. A president doing that today would be vilified and there would be calls for impeachment.

 

Interesting observation I found recently.......

 

 

Poem - Don't Blame Me (Lubeck, Germany)

"Ancient words of a centuries old poem carved in a gothic, medieval alphabet on a towering, ornate cathedral door right in the heart of Lubeck, Germany. Translated into modern English, the words take the form of a frightening poem. Here is what the poem says:" (Source - Twilight's Last Gleaming - By: Dr. Chuck Missler)

 

 

You call me eternal, then do not seek me

You call me fair, then do not love me

You call me gracious, then do not trust me

You call me just, then do not fear me

You call me life, then do not choose me

You call me light, then do not see me

You call me Lord, then do not respect me

You call me master, then do not obey me

You call me merciful, then do not thank me

You call me mighty, then do not honor me

You call me noble, then do not serve me

You call me rich, then do not ask me

You call me Savior, then do not praise me

You call me shepherd, then do not follow me

You call me the Way, then do not walk with me

You call me wise, then do not heed me

You call me Son of God, then do not worship me

When I condemn you, then do not blame me.

 

 

Not trying to start a war, but I do not think religion has anyplace within schools or government. I'm not a religious person, but in my opinion by allowing religion into schools and government. Younger generations need to make that choice themselves not be forced to. Its the same deal with religion in government, for example if say the majority of government was say Pagen then its going to ruffle a lot of feathers for Christians. I also might add the founding fathers were very anti religious because they knew what kind of power they held over society..

[Cowpie]

I understand. That is the present sentiment of the day. The founders may have been anti-religious, as it pertains to religious denominations being established by the government, but a recognition that a power greater than themselves should be appealed to seek wisdom and guidance they did recognize. History paints a different picture than the anti-religious mantras we hear today. During a period of no gains in the creation of the Constitution, Benjamin Franklin called upon the Chair of the Constitutional Committee, George Washington, that all the delegates pray for guidance in furthering the progress of creating that document.

 

As quoted in the history of this....

 

“in this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find the truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?”

Franklin here reminded the Convention how at the beginning of the war with England, the Continental Congress had had prayers for divine protection – and in this very room. He continued, “Our prayers, sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? . . . I have lived, Si,r a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men.”

“If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by him, was it probable an empire could arise without his aid? I believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.”

“I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.”

 

George Washington's prayer for the nation:

 

Almighty GOD; we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection, that thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States of America at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of The Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen

​​And the proclamation of President James Madison in 1812:

Whereas the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses, have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the People of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of pubic Humiliation, and Prayer; and whereas such a recommendation will enable the several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which he has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign power to involve these United States;

I do therefore recommend the third Thursday in August next, as a convenient day to be set apart for the devout purposes of rendering to the Sovereign of the Universe and the Benefactor of mankind, the public homage due to his holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasures; of seeking His merciful forgiveness, His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and especially of offering fervent supplications, that in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American People under his peculiar care and protection; that he would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require others to do to them; and finally, that , turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of Peace.

Given at Washington the 9th day of July, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twelve.

By the President.

[Doug Rosewood]

I understand. That is the present sentiment of the day. The founders may have been anti-religious, as it pertains to religion being established by the government, but a recognition that a power greater than themselves should be appealed to seek wisdom and guidance. History paints a different picture than the anti-religious mantras we hear today. During a period of no gains in the creation of the Constitution, Benjamin Franklin called upon the Chair of the Constitutional Committee, George Washington, that all the delegates pray for guidance in furthering the progress of creating that document.

 

As quoted in the history of this....

 

“in this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find the truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?”

 

Franklin here reminded the Convention how at the beginning of the war with England, the Continental Congress had had prayers for divine protection – and in this very room. He continued, “Our prayers, sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? . . . I have lived, Si,r a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men.”

 

“If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by him, was it probable an empire could arise without his aid? I believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.”

 

“I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.”

 

George Washington's prayer for the nation:

 

Almighty GOD; we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection, that thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States of America at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of The Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen

​​And the proclamation of President James Madison in 1812:

Whereas the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses, have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the People of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of pubic Humiliation, and Prayer; and whereas such a recommendation will enable the several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which he has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign power to involve these United States;

I do therefore recommend the third Thursday in August next, as a convenient day to be set apart for the devout purposes of rendering to the Sovereign of the Universe and the Benefactor of mankind, the public homage due to his holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasures; of seeking His merciful forgiveness, His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and especially of offering fervent supplications, that in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American People under his peculiar care and protection; that he would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require others to do to them; and finally, that , turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of Peace.

Given at Washington the 9th day of July, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twelve.

By the President.

James Monroe,

Secretary of State

Like I said man I'm not trying to start a pissing match, your obviously a man of faith which I respect. I just wanted to throw my two cents into the hat. I myself was raised in a religious family but I consider myself atheist as an adult. I just don't think religion is what it use to be, it seems like more and more groups are using their faith as a crutch to commit cruel acts against humanity or to promote their own personal agendas.

[Cowpie]

And I respect your position. I am just an observer of what has happened over the years. There is a correlation between our public acknowledgment of a supreme being, or rather recent lack thereof, and how things have progressed.

 

And social statistics are interesting things. Crime rates, unwed birth rates, education proficiencies of students, etc all remained fairly level until prayer was removed from schools in 1963. From that point on, all negative social ills started to rise at a alarming rate.

 

Some interesting observations on problems in schools in differing eras...

 

 

Government Records show the top 7 leading problems in our schools ranked in order from first to seventh, 1940 and 1990. Notice the differences in type and seriousness.

 

1940: 1) talking out of turn 2) chewing gum 3) making noise 4) running in the halls 5) cutting line 6) dress code violations 7) littering

 

1990: 1) drug abuse 2) alcohol abuse 3) pregnancy 4) suicide 5) rape 6) robbery 7) assault

 

 

And what of SAT scores?

 

[Cowpie]

Like I said man I'm not trying to start a pissing match, your obviously a man of faith which I respect. I just wanted to throw my two cents into the hat. I myself was raised in a religious family but I consider myself atheist as an adult. I just don't think religion is what it use to be, it seems like more and more groups are using their faith as a crutch to commit cruel acts against humanity or to promote their own personal agendas.

 

 

I am not sure one can be an Atheist, at least intellectually. A agnostic, yes. To really be an atheist, one has to be all knowing, which is an impossibility. An agnostic, I can respect fully. They don't claim to know that a God does or does not exist, which is a reasonable position to take. They may not be motivated towards a religion, but there is something in them that questions. And to be honest, everyone thinks about their own death at some point and wonders if there is something afterwards. Some statistics show that people think of their own demise up to once a week. It is inherent in the human condition to question what is beyond this existence, if anything. That is why there are so many religions all over the place.

 

No pissing contest if there is dialogue without name calling and such. Just simple dialogue. And you are quite correct.... some use religion to do nasty things to others and manipulate others. It is a sad state of affairs.

[Doug Rosewood]

 

 

I am not sure one can be an Atheist, at least intellectually. A agnostic, yes. To really be an atheist, one has to be all knowing, which is an impossibility. An agnostic, I can respect fully. They don't claim to know that a God does or does not exist, which is a reasonable position to take. They may not be motivated towards a religion, but there is something in them that questions. And to be honest, everyone thinks about their own death at some point and wonders if there is something afterwards. Some statistics show that people think of their own demise up to once a week. It is inherent in the human condition to question what is beyond this existence, if anything. That is why there are so many religions all over the place.

 

No pissing contest if there is dialogue without name calling and such. Just simple dialogue. And you are quite correct.... some use religion to do nasty things to others and manipulate others. It is a sad state of affairs.

Your argument goes both ways, there is no evidence of a higher being either(please don't try the faith/bible as evidence of "god") I could easily say Zeus is real because they built temples for him back in the day. Also your laying the foundation of the rest of your argument off of one very small piece of the the dynamics of society. Some examples, the economy was a little more stable back then which produced decent paying jobs, which in return created healty home enviroments(the job market/economy is pretty much a roller coaster now). Lastly drugs have been around for centuries, they have always been abused it is just they were swept under the rug or got a blind eye turned to them..also drugs that are considered controlled now a days..were consumed like vitamins back in the day too(cocaine ETC)

[Cowpie]

Nah. No need to play the faith/bible thing. Historical evidence is good enough for starters. Unlike Zeus, Jesus was an actual historical figure. Can't get by that one. Some take liberities on who He was or what his intent was, but fully acknowledge that He was a real historical figure. And yes, outside of Bible accounts. Enough evidence that it would stand up in any court of law as to His historicity. And there were eye witnesses that recorded some of that. Not hearsay, but actual first hand accounts. Now what one does with that, well, they have to decide. And of His claims, one has to decide if He was a liar, a lunatic, or God. There is little ambiguity about what He said about himself.

 

And people are what they are. One thing for certain, if there is no accountability to a higher power, then just about everything is permissible. There is no moral standard to go by. And it leads to many of the problems we have today.

 

Your comment on when jobs were plentiful and better paying. What of the Great Depression? We had none of the social programs we do now, yet, we did not have near the problems that we do now in society. We had TRUE 25% unemployment. with no real government run safety nets like now. No welfare, no unemployment insurance, no medicaid, etc. Using your logic, we should have virtually destroyed ourselves during that time. So, using jobs as an argument is a little weak. I see how it is reasoned, but history doesn't support it. We did not have near the drug problem in the 1930's as we have had since the 1960's. And even when virtually all current illegal drugs were, in fact, legal, we didn't have near the problem we do today. Up until the big prohibition move with alcohol, opium, marijuana, etc were not outlawed. They all were outlawed at the same time alcohol was outlawed. Coca Cola even put cocaine in soda pop! Yep, that is why they called themselves Coca Cola. (yes, even Snopes and other myth busting groups acknowledge that there was some cocaine in Coca Cola). Yet we built a great nation and there was more civility among its citizens. And even among those that didn't adhere to any particular religion, there was a respect for the moral attributes that religion gave. There was a common thread in our national discourse that there was a God of some sort that influenced the affairs of men.

[Doug Rosewood]

Nah. No need to play the faith/bible thing. Historical evidence is good enough for starters. Unlike Zeus, Jesus was an actual historical figure. Can't get by that one. Some take liberities on who He was or what his intent was, but fully acknowledge that He was a real historical figure. And yes, outside of Bible accounts. Enough evidence that it would stand up in any court of law as to His historicity. And there were eye witnesses that recorded some of that. Not hearsay, but actual first hand accounts. Now what one does with that, well, they have to decide.

 

And people are what they are. One thing for certain, if there is no accountability to a higher power, then just about everything is permissible. There is no moral standard to go by. And it leads to many of the problems we have today.

Have you ever entertained the evolution theory? The idea that we are all animals with the only real thing launching us to the top of the chain is the fact that we can reason...also law is what is suppose to be keep society honest. Then there is also the age old religion vs religion..if I remember right Hinduism or Buddhism out dates all modern religons, so in theory that would be the one true religion...just food for thought, thanks for keeping this civil.

[Cowpie]

Oh, I have thought thru the evolution thing. Had a pile of it in college, primarily in Anthropology and Geology. Not logical. It violates several scientific standards. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is but one of many. And the probability of the DNA molecule coming into existence by chance. Even Francis Crick, one of the co-discoverers of the DNA molecule, with the help of several British mathematicians, figured out that the probability is greater than 10 to the 125th power. Science has set a standard that anything greater than 10 to the 50th power is impossible. And the fact that the DNA molecule is a 3 out of 4 error correcting digital code. Kinda makes one wonder who wrote the code, and you have to have hardware to run the code and they have to be done in conjunction with each other. Very few professional programmers can even work with a code that complicated. And we can't just go back in time and claim things. Even modern astrophysicists acknowledge that the universe had a finite beginning. There just isn't enough time. There has only been 10 to the 17th seconds of time in the universe if one accepts the general scientific age of the universe.

 

Well, not sure if Hinduism or Buddhism outdates all modern religions. Judaism, or rather the Hebrew people that it comes from, easily goes back nearly 4000 years. There really isn't any reliable records of anything else existing further back than that. Claims, maybe, but no reliable records to back them up. Christianity is just a Messianic Sect of Judaism and started almost 2000 years ago. Islam even acknowledges and accepts many of the ideas that Judaism espouses. Acknowledges the same Abraham as a main character. But Islam seems more built on the pre-Babylonian worship system that started roughly the same time as the Hebrew people were getting going. The Kaaba in Mecca, especially the black stone it is based on, one of the primary symbols of Islam, predates Mohammed by many centuries. And the same crescent moon emblem of Islam has a history dating back almost 4000 years also. Archeologists have uncovered hundreds of stone idols with the same emblem dating back at least 3000 years. While they all can't seem to get along, that is just people messing things up and wallowing in their own pride and selfishness. Unfortunately, there is a lot of history of people screwing up by using religion as a excuse to exert power over others. No religious group is innocent.

[Doug Rosewood]

Oh, I have thought thru the evolution thing. Had a pile of it in college, primarily in Anthropology and Geology. Not logical. It violates several scientific standards. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is but one of many. And the probability of the DNA molecule coming into existence by chance. Even Francis Crick, one of the co-discoverers of the DNA molecule, with the help of several British mathematicians, figured out that the probability is greater than 10 to the 125th power. Science has set a standard that anything greater than 10 to the 50th power is impossible. And the fact that the DNA molecule is a 3 out of 4 error correcting digital code. Kinda makes one wonder who wrote the code. Very few professional programmers can even work with a code that complicated. And we can't just go back in time and claim things. Even modern astrophysicists acknowledge that the universe had a finite beginning. There just isn't enough time.

 

Well, not sure if Hinduism or Buddhism outdates all modern religions. Judaism, or rather the Hebrew people that it comes from, easily goes back nearly 4000 years. There really isn't any reliable records of anything else existing further back than that. Claims, maybe, but no reliable records to back them up. Christianity is just a Messianic Sect of Judaism and started almost 2000 years ago. Islam even acknowledges and accepts many of the ideas that Judaism espouses. Acknowledges the same Abraham as a main character. But Islam seems more built on the Babylonian worship system that started roughly the same time as the Hebrew people were getting going. The Kaaba in Mecca, especially the black stone it is based on, one of the primary symbols of Islam, predates Mohammed by many centuries. While they all can't seem to get along, that is just people messing things up and wallowing in their own pride and selfishness. Unfortunately, there is a lot of history of people screwing up by using religion as a excuse to exert power over others.

you seem well educated, I can appreciate this healthy debate. I'm at work so I don't have time to compile scientific data, but I will toss this tid bit out..they keep discovering more and more mummified remains and skeletons of our ancestors which clearly show some form of evolution over the years and remember you possess organs that are not needed like they were when we were the flintstones. Just some food for thought, have you ever wondered what will be "religion" in 100 years? With new religons budding and main stream fragmenting and creating new doctrine? Honestly I think the way society is going humanity will be on par with neanderthals

[Cowpie]

Well, no one can tell what will be the religion du jour in 100 years! LOL. It has been satirically stated that there are two religions for every person in California! Obviously over dramatic, but it gets the point across. And any religious idea will attract a group of followers. The only thing that one can do is try and determine which view has it's basis in reality and truth, not feeling or just because it fits your world view. Is there evidence to back up their claims that make the probability realistic.

 

No one can be 100% certain of any religious claims. It resides in probability based on the evidence of its truthfulness. But we live with probability every day. We cross the street with no problem, because we have determined the probability of getting hit by a car is such that we can cross safely. Is it guaranteed that we won't get hit? Obviously not. And courtroom jury decisions are based totally on probability of the evidence, but we accept jury decisions nonetheless. And even they goof once in a while. We sent guys to the moon based on probability. Nothing in this life is 100% certain except death. Now, how one deals with that fact is based solely on probability. The Atheist feels that it is higher probability of no God existing. But there is no way to actually be 100% certain. Likewise, a Christian is basing his life on the probability that a God does exist. There is no 100% certainty on either side. One only can look at the evidence, or lack thereof, and try and reach a conclusion as to where the probability actually is in favor of. Where it becomes a sticky issue is finding out too late that one was wrong. Some religions feel you get a do over if you get it wrong. But the probability of that actually being the case is pretty weak. There just isn't any hard evidence to back it up.

[WLC]

A scientists once said he could explain everything. An old farmer said explain a grain of corn. The scientists cut the grain and gave the percentage of every ingredient of the grain of corn. After bragging about all his knowledge and there was nothing he couldn't do the farmer had his last reply. PUT IT BACK TOGETHER AND MAKE IT SPROUT! He was speechless. Man cannot make seeds. God is not dead!

[WLC]

A neighbor saw a man making his sons hoe corn day after day just to make his corn crop better. One day he confronted the man about the situation and his relentless working of his sons. The man replied nicely that he was not raising corn but was raising boys. The light came on!

[WLC]

Independence Day is almost here! Wish we were somewhat more independent!