Oil catch can?

Silverado-Hareek · November 13, 2015

Some very good information posted from GDI. Thank you for the input. I heard from Tracy at RX the same sentiments about using cleaners like BG and CRC, etc. However, my personal opinion (as non-mechanic that just reads stuff on the internet) is that the serious problems caused by loose deposits after using these cleaners happen when people use them for the first time after high mileage. BG offers a $4,000 warranty for your engine if you use their system within the the first 15,000 miles and within every 15,000 mile interval after that for as long as you own the vehicle. Let's be honest about warranties: they're like casinos where the odds are in the house's favor. BG can offer this warranty because they've likely done studies that prove using it early and often and does not harm the engine because you never allow a big amount of deposits to build up, thus they don't have to spend any money to fix your engine. Throw a catch can into the mix and your engine is even more protected and spotless when you use a combination of the 2. In my opinion, these cleaners are safe but only if you use them early and often, which GDI stated. Although they stated using it within the first 5,000 miles but I think based on BG's offerings that the safe limit is 15,000 miles and they've likely built a factor of safety into that as well so they're not offering a warranty and cutting it real close to the mileage limit. You're probably safe to do it within 20,000 or 25,000 miles but they'll say 15,000 to definitely protect themselves and sell more product.

With that being said, BG makes no mention of a warranty for your exhaust system and catalytic converters. Those could potentially be getting clogged up from the process regardless of when you do the cleanings but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Keep the good questions coming, this is what a educational discussion should be like, and you have a unique opportunity to pick the brain of an Automotive Engineer that has been working on GDI and the issues and solutions for years from the manufacturing side of this.

GDI Tech thanks for all of your input. Do you have any thoughts about my post quoted above and the assumptions I've made about the BG induction service?

GDI Tech · November 13, 2015

First off this thread has exploded lately and wow what a monster post by GDI Tech, a long read but much appreciated.

Let me re-ask my question(s).

1. Where do a majority of the contaminants in the oil come from? Outside air (dirt & dust particles) or leftovers (unburnt fuel etc) from the combustion process?

2. So then what is the major source of the deposits left on the valves? The oil itself or the contaminants in the oil?

3. Does dirtier oil produce more deposits on the valves? If so is more frequent oil changes better?

4. There was mention of using synthetic oil and that it does not collect/produce deposits on the valves as much as a blended oil. Why is this? Does synthetic oil somehow hold contaminants better?

And then back to my original question, if ethanol burns cleaner that would mean less contaminants in the oil correct? But not knowing the answers to my above question is this better for less deposits?

I see the benefit of a good catch can like the E2-X for prohibiting oil from ever getting back to the valves but do the other items also have a benefit in regards to less deposit build up?

Sorry lots of questions.

mjj,

Great questions, and all have been gone over in great detail in the previous ages, but to make it easier here are the answers:

sdeeter is correct, but in more detail, all internal combustion engines have a certain amount of "bow-by". This enters the crankcase as a suspended or gaseous mix of certain contaminates. Here are the main ones that cause damage to the engine if not removed/evacuated as soon as they enter. If not removed, they quickly settle and mix with the oil and also coat internal parts:

Water: Released during the intense heat and pressure of the combustion process. Tis dilutes and contaminates the oil as well as allows corrosion of internal parts. This is also the easiest to remove during the PCV systems evacuation.

Un-burnt fuel: Gasoline does not burn very efficiently, and the same with ethanol. In fact it takes more ethanol to produce the same energy as gasoline does, and to maintain the proper A/F ratio. It is the detergents in the fuel that kept port injection engines valves spotless as well as the cooling effect of the spray on the valves. Fuel never touches the valves now (in any amount that can prevent this) as it is introduced directly into the combustion chamber in the final few millisecond's of the compression stroke. This also dilutes and contaminates the oil.

Sulfuric acid: Forms when water and other hydrocarbon based compounds mix and this is very corrosive as well as a damaging contaminate attacking the oils ability to protect.

Abrasive soot and carbon particles: 70% plus of all wear comes from these, and this is what turns the oil dark. You will see in many GDI engines the oil turns dark far sooner than in a port injection engine and this is due to the updated more effective baffling and separation of the oil mist inside the engine. The automakers are now beginning to trap some of the contaminants as well as the oil mist they are trying to control. Your oil filter only traps down to 15 microns f particulate size, and most of these are in the 3-7 micron or so size. Once these mix with the oil, they are there to stay.

So, the only way to prevent the deposits is to stop them at the source, and that cannot be done with 90% plus of the "catchcans" on the market, no matter what the price. This is why you seems endorsing the Elite E2-X series.

When you install one of them another benefit occurs, you are using 2 separate suction sources now for evacuation so at all times these are flushed and removed from the crankcase. The OEM PCV system only uses intake manifold vacuum and any time you are accelerating, this falls to zero (reversion pulses from cam lobe overlap, etc.) so during these periods the damaging compounds are dropping and mixing with the oil. The E2-X prevents this by always providing proper evacuation no matter the operating mode.

I have to get back to work so will stop back and answer more in a few hours.

GREAT questions!

jrob56 · November 13, 2015

Got my Elite can installed last night, had an extra Oring that seemed too small to be a replacement but it could be a stretch fit. There was one already on the can. Two extra clips with my check valve and the lock washers werent needed for mounting near the windshield washer reservoir per the instructions on their site. Anyone know if the o ring is a spare or what it is for?

Edited November 13, 2015 by jrob56

GDI Tech · November 13, 2015

GDI Tech thanks for all of your input. Do you have any thoughts about my post quoted above and the assumptions I've made about the BG induction service?

Yes. We are currently working on a consulting basis on one of the major brands that sells a similar product. These can be helpful if used from the start, but the issue is there is a certain amount of "wash down" when this solvent gets past the rings, and this washes some lubrication from the cylinder walls that can accelerate wear. But if done every 15k miles as suggested, you will have a good deal of coking before the next treatment. During this time between treatments, the wear to the valve guides is still occurring as the deposits on the valve stems are drawn into the guides with each cycle of the valve, and the guide is generally a brass alloy that is softer than the hard valve material and wear occurs. If the guide wears past acceptable tolerances then it becomes unstable at higher RPM's and "chatters" or "wobbles" in the guide allowing the valve edge where it contacts the seat to make contact un-evenly. This stresses the metal and fatigues it allowing failure over time:

Read this to see how the LS7 engine had these issues due to incorrect machining, but the result is the same:

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2015/10/15/Corvette-Z06-427-owners-file-proposed-class-action-suit-over-alleged-engine-defect/1801444953826/

So, back to your take, I am all for regular treatments on Port injection engines with the soft carbon build up on piston tops and combustion chambers (every 50k miles or so...see the post a page or so back where a Tech posted the build up on a generator piston top), but as much of the deposits that form on a GDI engines valves are very hard and abrasive, the scouring we see when tearing these down to inspect on the pistons and cylinder walls are what concern me. The BG warranty would come into play I assume if these is catastrophic engine failure that can be proven to be directly related to the use of the treatments, and that will be near impossible to prove IMHO as well as most damage would be gradual and accumulative in nature, and I would think most owners would not notice and eventually trade the vehicle so that type of warranty seems pretty safe fro them and others to offer.

My gut is I would do a treatment at the time of installing a Elite E2-X system to have a good start, but really a manual cleaning is best as I think BG even states it cleans "Up to 50% of the deposits" if I am not mistaken. And that is the industry average by what we see.

So, as long as you have a good system installed I would say yes, every 15k miles WITH an E2-X system would be a good pretty safe regiment with a GDI engine, but until more data is gathered over a broad examination of engines doing just that, the jury is still out as far as my endorsing it.

And the conditions of the warranty fall into what we are seeing once an engine has say 10k miles on it then damage can occur breaking these deposits loose while the engine is running. A manual cleaning is not difficult for those mechanically inclined.

Hope that helps!

Oh, and I forgot to address the oil used and the impact on deposit growth.

ANY syn blend (like M1 Dexos, etc.) will create more deposits due to the petroleum based contents. A full syn (read up on the oil you use...not all claiming "full synthetic" are full synthetic, will result in less deposits due to the chemical composition and how they tolerate higher temps better before breaking down to "sludge".

I personally prefer Pennzoil pure platinum, QS full syn, etc. over M1 for a "Walmart" carried oil.

For a premium brand hard to beat Amsoil and similar.

GDI Tech · November 13, 2015

jrob,

Nice install!

Yes, that is a spare O-ring as the base model does not come with the 1/4 turn drain valve so it is taken apart every time to drain and if you break an O-ring they include an extra.

Note, this is the base Elite can. One of the best when compared to most any other brand out there costing much more, and made in the USA billet construction. It has the one outlet and evacuates as the OEM PCV system only during idle, cruise, and deceleration. Tis is the most affordable of the Elite solution's and is best suited for a port injection engine as it was designed for. It will provide good reduction in the rate of coking.

The E2 can was released a few years back and is larger in capacity and air/oil separation abilities and also has dual outlets for utilizing check valves to provide constant evacuation improving over the OEM PCV system and is a better solution but a bit more costly. It was also designed for Port injection engines that are modified and can work with forced induction quite well.

The E2-X series is the ultimate. Standard with AN fittings, billet checkvalves, 1/4 turn drain valve, and much more as well as the most effective air/oil separating system available for the $, but is also the highest priced due to all included, etc. and was developed just for the unique needs of today's GDI engines. There is no better solution available aside from a centrifuge type system and they cost thousands to start and go up from there.

Just so all know, the E2-X can be used with older port injection as well as the best solution, and even the base Elite will help slow the coking formation.

GDI Tech · November 13, 2015

Oh, and one more thing to address the cheap Chinese knock-offs the 2 gys are selling using the RX brand (the reason RX is no longer marketing the genuine orignals) here is one taken apart for all to see:

Note the bottom and top appear to be "glued" together!!!

This came apart with little effort so I can see the concern of them possibly falling apart over time on there own with vibration and the oil mix inside them.

fondupot · November 13, 2015

Oh, and one more thing to address the cheap Chinese knock-offs the 2 gys are selling using the RX brand (the reason RX is no longer marketing the genuine orignals) here is one taken apart for all to see:

Note the bottom and top appear to be "glued" together!!!

This came apart with little effort so I can see the concern of them possibly falling apart over time on there own with vibration and the oil mix inside them.

What a piece of Junk. Sad to see the RX name being dragged through the dirt with that piece of crap.

GDI Tech · November 14, 2015

What a piece of Junk. Sad to see the RX name being dragged through the dirt with that piece of crap.

Amen. They were the true pioneers starting 14-15 years ago and really did the research and development on all of the issues caused by oil ingestion as well as all the GDI focus before any others. The two scammers are ex employee's that took advantage of all the hard work and years of investment RX made and shared with all. Have worked with the RX team for years and no better source of info IMHO. Spread the word and these pics as most have no idea what has happened. RX owners are taking legal action, but that is a long and expensive journey before they can stop these low-rates.

sneakypete6 · November 14, 2015

Our E2 Catch Can has the same 3-piece design, and can also be disassembled for emptying, cleaning, or inspection. The E2 Catch Can is overall larger in size. It utilizes a larger 3rd stage condensing chamber that equates to approximately 30% more volume than our Standard Catch Can. In addition, the larger size can accommodate a choice of one or two Exit Ports. A very good overall choice.

Our newer E2-X Catch Can line was introduced and designed to further combat gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines, and more specifically the possibility of coking issues. It has the largest coalescing chamber of all (3) Catch Can versions. In addition, the Catch Can is equipped with a 1/4-turn ball valve located at the bottom for easy draining.

All three versions are constructed of 6061-T6 aluminum with an anodized finish. All three versions utilize the same corrosion resistant Stainless Steel coalescing media in the coalescing chamber. All three versions do a great job of condensing the oil vapor, trapping, and keeping the oil inside the container.

I considered buying the E2 a couple months ago but decided to wait. Now I think I'll get the E2-X.

When ordering the E2-X on y'alls website, which option should I select? For the regular E2 there is an option specifically for 2014+ GMC/Chevy 5.3L/6.2L Trucks, but I don't see this on the E2-X. I don't drive my truck too hard so I think the single outlet is what is recommended.

Thanks

HondaHawkGT · November 15, 2015

It's a bit disappointing to learn that the original Elite can isn't as effective for DI engines as I was led to believe. What's the difference in design between the E2-X vs the E1/E2?

Edited November 15, 2015 by HondaHawkGT

BuyAmericanIron · November 15, 2015

Thanks GDI Tech for some very interesting and informative reading! Just another reason I check this site daily.

Truckin 55 · November 15, 2015

Installed Elite2 similar to jrob56 yesterday but lost a clamp and couldn't finish with check valve. This morning went Auto parts store for clamps and Hose cutters, they didn't sell them and wouldn't lend the pair they use. Being a little irritated put he stuff back and went to a shop next door. They just had regular hose clamps but were nice enough to lend their cutters. Made one cut put on the valve and all I need to do now is trim ends off the Zip Ties.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Trucker Jeff

SPrew94535 · November 15, 2015

I need some help. Just got my Elite Engineering Catch Can and getting two different instructions that is confusing me I go the model CC-300R-LS3. The diagram that came with it shows the inlet connector on top and says "from engines pcv system" and the exit connection on the side says 'to intake manifold'. I look at the install instructions online and it has the top connection..the inlet going to the intake manifold and the side connection....the exit connection going to the pcv. Im corn-fused!!