Oil catch can?

[Silverado-Hareek]

Yet another reason I'll never own a DI engine.

 

I don't think you'll have much of a choice unfortunately. In the quest for fuel savings under new EPA regulations, I think eventually all gas engines will become DI. Most of what is being sold today across manufacturers is DI already.

[jrob56]

 

I don't think you'll have much of a choice unfortunately. In the quest for fuel savings under new EPA regulations, I think eventually all gas engines will become DI. Most of what is being sold today across manufacturers is DI already.

 

He could go Diesel, but yeah gas wise 5.0 in F150 is only one left in a ford truck I believe, cant remember if the V6 is. Chevy trucks are all DI. No idea what Chrysler is doing but dont know many who care haha.

[Silverado-Hareek]

 

He could go Diesel, but yeah gas wise 5.0 in F150 is only one left in a ford truck I believe, cant remember if the V6 is. Chevy trucks are all DI. No idea what Chrysler is doing but dont know many who care haha.

Diesel is DI by design.

 

Only Chevy that isn't DI I think is the 2500 with the Vortec gas engine.

 

And the EPA average miles per gallon are increasing constantly but the laws of physics are staying the same. Trucks can't shed any more weight and still do the work they're designed to do....they need mass. Thus they need different engine technology to save fuel.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited November 10, 2015 by Silverado-Hareek

[jrob56]

Diesel is DI by design.

 

Only Chevy that isn't DI I think is the 2500 with the Vortec gas engine.

 

And the EPA average miles per gallon are increasing constantly but the laws of physics are staying the same. Trucks can't shed any more weight and still do the work they're designed to do....they need mass. Thus they need different engine technology to save fuel.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Right but I dont believe diesels have the issues with DI that gassers do. If you really wanted to avoid this issue bad enough that seems like the way to go.

[Silverado-Hareek]

 

Right but I dont believe diesels have the issues with DI that gassers do. If you really wanted to avoid this issue bad enough that seems like the way to go.

 

I think they do. I thought they come equipped with catch cans and their service manual recommends induction services like BG to clean the engine. I could be wrong though..

Edited November 10, 2015 by Silverado-Hareek

[Elite Engineering]

 

I ordered the same one you did so should be good. I messaged Elite though to see their thoughts on this.

 

I would say this is a perfect example of one size does not fit all. Each of the (3) Catch Cans (Standard, E2, and E2-X) are designed with price, function, and end user in mind. All (3) Catch Cans are designed to effectively separate, trap, and contain damaging by-products that are typical in the combustion cycle.

 

 

Our standard Elite Catch Can, has been an economical favorite in the industry for 12+ years and is still used by many auto tuners. It's constructed of a 3-piece design that can easily be disassembled for inspection or cleaning. This Standard Catch Can features a smaller condensing chamber and therefore a smaller overall size to allow this Catch Can to be installed in tight areas where space is limited. A great choice for port injection engines.

 

 

Our E2 Catch Can has the same 3-piece design, and can also be disassembled for emptying, cleaning, or inspection. The E2 Catch Can is overall larger in size. It utilizes a larger 3rd stage condensing chamber that equates to approximately 30% more volume than our Standard Catch Can. In addition, the larger size can accommodate a choice of one or two Exit Ports. A very good overall choice.

 

 

Our newer E2-X Catch Can line was introduced and designed to further combat gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines, and more specifically the possibility of coking issues. It has the largest coalescing chamber of all (3) Catch Can versions. In addition, the Catch Can is equipped with a 1/4-turn ball valve located at the bottom for easy draining.

All three versions are constructed of 6061-T6 aluminum with an anodized finish. All three versions utilize the same corrosion resistant Stainless Steel coalescing media in the coalescing chamber. All three versions do a great job of condensing the oil vapor, trapping, and keeping the oil inside the container.

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by Elite Engineering

[ToesonTheNose]

I have an air raid MIT Junior, inspecting my filter this weekend the bottom of the entire air box was coasted with oil, like little puddles, Will a clean side sep fix this? how would oil get down there on the other side of the filter?

[Jsdirt]

 

I don't think you'll have much of a choice unfortunately. In the quest for fuel savings under new EPA regulations, I think eventually all gas engines will become DI. Most of what is being sold today across manufacturers is DI already.

Got plenty of choices - all using a carburetor.

[mjj]

I'll pass on the E2-X can if it only has a drain hole in bottom. I love being able to unscrew the can and take a look inside. Besides that mines collects a fair amount. I'll be sticking with the original. And emptying it every weekend this winter.....

[HondaHawkGT]

 

Right but I dont believe diesels have the issues with DI that gassers do. If you really wanted to avoid this issue bad enough that seems like the way to go.

 

Diesel's do have buildup but it's generally due to EGR systems not the PCV system. Gas DI engines pull oil into the intake at high vacuum, ie, when the throttle body plate is closed at idle or under other driving conditions. Diesel engines generally don't use a throttle plate. The crankcase ventilation on a diesel is set up differently because if the engine could suck enough oil through the PCV, it'd have a runaway condition and it's not going to stop until if pulls most of the oil out.

[Jsdirt]

Lots of fun when they run away!

 

Go to 1:50: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M1o2rpO_JY&spfreload=10

[jrob56]

 

Diesel's do have buildup but it's generally due to EGR systems not the PCV system. Gas DI engines pull oil into the intake at high vacuum, ie, when the throttle body plate is closed at idle or under other driving conditions. Diesel engines generally don't use a throttle plate. The crankcase ventilation on a diesel is set up differently because if the engine could suck enough oil through the PCV, it'd have a runaway condition and it's not going to stop until if pulls most of the oil out.

Cool thanks for the education, I didn't know they shared the issue. Looks like we're SOL haha

[GDI Tech]

Hi All, I will make a large post addressing everything. The Elite's all unscrew and are threaded billet construction. The 1/4 turn drain valve and drain hose allows much easier draining with a simple 1/4 turn to open. A drain hose can be added to hang down below the vehicle as well, and if desired the drain valve moved to the end of the hose so anytime under the truck draining oil for oil change, drain the can as well. So you have several options to empty them.

 

Steve (Elite) put up a great post, and I will go into great technical detail on everything from PCV operation, to why you DON'T want to use a solvent based upper induction cleaner on GDI engines, and yes, diesel run-on or run away! can be from oil alone!

 

On the oil in the intake, if you have the dual outlet routed correctly and the cleanside unit will prevent this. This ingestion occurs when you accelerate and the intake manifold vacuum drops to zero. Then pressure builds and must seek relief. This allows oil to enter the air filter/intake bridge area as the flow backs up.

 

I will include tons of pictures, etc. but as Elite states, if price is the decider, you will still get some benefit from using the lower cost original units but GDI is an entirely different animal and cannot tolerate even small amounts, and like the one member posted his mechanic stated no cans catch it all, this new design technology the E2-X line traps twice or more than the next best cans out there as the test results posted earlier show. They trap 95-98% and he should try one to see for him self.

 

Long term tests on GM GDI vehicles have shown at 62,000 miles almost no deposits.

[GDI Tech]

OK, Back with some time.

 

Lets start with the PCV system and when it was implemented, and why. And although this is all info that could fill a book, I will condemse it as much as possible.

 

Prior to the early 1960's. all cars and trucks just vented to the atmosphere using a "draft tube". In those days, very little was known as far as what occurred during the combustion process and what all was contained in the pressure that escapes past the piston rings, or "blow by".

 

They also did not realize that through reversion these tubes also sucked up dirt and dust from the road way, etc.

 

Now, when the PCV system was mandated, it was purely for emissions, but something unexpected also occurred. These engines that (oil changes done at 1500 miles intervals) were only lasting 40-50k miles before needing a rebuild. But in the years following the PCV's implementation, these same engines, using the same oils, were now lasting 100-150k miles before needing to be rebuilt. Studies and analysis discovered that in that blow-by were a mix of combustion by-products, many of them damaging to the engine and contaminating the engine oil. The PCV system was removing these as soon as they entered and were still in a suspended, or gaseous state before they havd a chance to settle and mix with the oil causing premature wear and damage. So the PCV system does far more today than address emissions. It performs several critical function to keep your oil clean and engine alive for several hundred thousand miles. You NEVER want to defeat, or delete the PCV systems functions.

 

Also, a valve job was needed generally by 20-30k miles as fuel/air mixture was introduced by a carburetor, so very little actual fuel made contact with the backsides of the intake valves and deposits, or coking were common. (no where near the level of today's GDI engines though).

 

Enter the Governments mandate to include minimum levels of detergent additives to prevent coking and slow the premature wear of the bronze alloy valve guides.

 

Then we moved to port fuel injection, and the constant spray of detergent fuel on the valves kept them cool and deposit free, so for the past 25 or so years, most techs have never dealt with premature valve guide wear and failure, until GDI.

 

Here is a Port injection valve from a GM LS based engine w/142,000 miles on it and rarely was top tier fuel used (all fuels are the same until delivered to the station and top tiers get additional additives beyond the minimum mandated amount):

 

 

And here is why we thought deposits on the valves was gone forever:

 

There was little chance at all for deposits of any kind to form, and using a solvent based upper induction cleaner was generally completely safe and removed the soft carbon deposits from the piston tops and combustion chambers exiting out the exhaust w/out harming the catalyst or any internal engine parts.

 

Now, to meet the ever increasing CAFE fuel economy standards as well as increased emissions, GDI has needed to be implemented, and today, other than Chrysler (by 2017 they will have to be as well) ALL automakers in the world have now migrated to GDI in most all engine platforms (I will go into Diesel DI in the future) and they have done so before a robust solution to the ingestion of oil and other compounds entering the intake air charge causing this coking could be discovered.

 

And here is what we have today in as little as 20k or so miles:

 

 

And, although ALL auto makers have made huge strides in better more complete separation of the oil mist from the PCV vapors, but the "wall" all have hit is at app 25% effective separation, they also begin to trap these same damaging compounds that must be removed and evacuated from the crankcase before they have a chance to settle and mix with the oil.

 

These is little training material available today as techs/mechanics are no longer taught the proper functions and principals as they were 30-40 years ago, but here is one simple training video to watch and learn from:

 

 

 

 

And what do your 2014 or newer valves look like at 4-5k miles:

 

 

 

And this can only be prevented by stopping this ingestion at the source. This brings us to the different choices from Elite Engineering as Steve (Elite) posted earlier.

 

The original Elite can with one outlet was the standard for years as one of the best performing separators for use with a Port injection engine. As the valves stayed deposit free, they were of benefit by greatly reducing the amount of oil entering the intake air charge reducing detonation (knock retard) caused by the oil mist and reducing the rate that the rings and ringlands would take to "gum up" and impede free movement for proper ring seal. As more and more Turbo and other mods that increased blow-by and the need to develop an even more effective separator, Elite released the E2 can. Larger, more effective, and with 2 separate suction outlets these can be utilized to provide proper crankcase evacuation at all times in both NA and FI applications. Either of these choices are great, and the price is very good for the base, much better for the E2, and as GDI issues were becoming more and more known, they invested a ton of time and money and recently released the best separator on the market today, the E2-X series.

 

These can be used on any year engine for the optimum in separation, but due to the amount of engineering and manufacturing that go into them, (over $100 in fittings and valves alone) they are the most affordable for the effectiveness period. Many other costing $400-500-600 plus are not nearly as effective, and as todays GDI engines cannot tolerate ANY oil and the other compounds due to the lack of fuel spray to cool and clean, the deposits now being extremely hard and abrasive in their crystalline state, the E2-X is the ultimate solution, and was designed just for the GDI's engine unique requirements. This does NOT mean you wasted your $ purchasing one of the their models due to your budget, they all will help reduce the rate of coking, but only the E2-X series can nearly eliminate these deposits from ever building as shown at 62,000 miles on a GM GDI engine when installed from the dealer day one:

 

While only a centrifuge type separator can trap and remove 100% (they start at $5-6k and go to well over $100k in price) the E2-X series traps 95-98% of these compounds and as you can see, some coking has occurred, but almost no build-up to the extent it disrupts air flow and causes wear to the valve guides. The average catch can, only traps from 15-40% no matter the price or brand name. So no matter which Elite can you choose, you are getting the best solution in effectiveness for the $ when compared to any others in the price range, but to ensure the absolute most effective, the E2-X is the system the GDI should have if it fits in your budget.

 

Now lets move on the the solvents like BG/Seafoam/CRC, etc.

 

While performing an upper induction cleaning in the past on port injection engines, these were a definite benefit and rarely caused any damage. But as these deposits are far greater than ever before in history, and due to the extremely high temperatures the valves now operate at with no fuel cooling them, damage can and does occur when used, and as most mechanics are not well versed in any of the GDI issues, they are used as often as in the past with Port injection engines (profit margin is extremely high with $10-$12 of solvent and charging $100-$250 for a treatment) and these companies are pushing the dealer service centers like never before. So here is why, unless you start using them when new and every 3-5k miles after, you will most likely experience damage to your engine.

 

First, as I mentioned above, these are very hard abrasive deposits, not the soft carbon of the past, and when used the solvent is absorbed into the deposit and expands breaking some of it loose (at best I thing BG states 50%?) and although most does exit the exhaust port, when these large amounts hit the hot catalyst along with the gulp of solvent, they quite often begin clogging the honey comb as well as the shock of the solvent cracking it and causing damage.

 

The smaller particles some will always become forced between the piston and cylinder wall causing scouring, (scratches) to the skirts and cylinders. While this may be minor to begin with, over time they get worse and compromise the ring seal as well as increase blow-by. So, Ford has already last year sent TSB's out warning any use of these can and will void warranty, especially on the Ecoboost series of engines as the larger chunks are impacting the leading edge of the turbine blades damaging them as well.

 

Now lets look at some case studies.

 

Here is an intake valve that when an upper induction cleaning was performed you can see where a large chunk on the left side broke loose. This was to large to fit between the valve and seat and caused it to get stuck. When the piston came up it made contact bending the valve. The customer was the rare owner that new his engine was not "feeling right" and brought it back and was told on several occasions "no problem found"/ He persisted and when they finally performed a compression test, the weak cylinder was identified (note how much coking built up over what was "cleaned" loose during this time before tear down):

 

And of course, I urge any to not just take what they read as gospel, takes 15 minutes or less to remove your intake manifold and inspect your own valves and post pictures....and please post them along with how many miles you have on the truck, and if you ever used BG or other solvents.

 

Now, we should all agree that any in tank additives or the use of top tier fuels have zero effect on reducing this coking, correct? (no fuel touches the valves so money wasted).

 

If anyone needs more detailed explanation, just ask.

 

Let's back up to the PCV system a bit now. The intake manifold provides the vacuum, or suction to remove the damaging compounds from the crankcase, but anytime you are accelerating, IM vacuum drops to zero, so during these periods there is not evacuation and pressure actually builds. This will seek the path of least resistance to equalize with the barometric pressure of the outside air, and generally this is back flowing out the in, or out your cleanside into your air box or CAI if equipped. The E2 and the E2-X both have dual outlets, so if used with the Elite billet check valves (standard with the E2-X series, another reason the cost) you utilize the IM vacuum for idle, deceleration, and lite cruise for evacuation suction, and when you accelerate, the secondary outlet will use the area just upstream of the throttle body for evacuation suction when accelerating and at WOT operation. So no matter what the operating level, the dual valve cans will automatically open and close to always provide the strongest suction source and this prevents crankcase pressure from ever building, and this maintains ring stability (eliminates ring "flutter" for longer life and less wear of the rings and ring lands. the oil stays cleaner yet (oil analysis shows this so any can prove for themselves) and less contaminants in the oil, the less wear to the internal components.

 

70% plus of internal engine wear is from particles in the 3-7 micron range, yet oil filters only trap down to 15 microns, so the PCV systems evacuation of these particles before they can settle and mix provide less wear all around. As the E2-X series traps 95-98% of the oil mist and other contaminates, detonation is greatly reduced so less KR (knock retard) means the engine is running at optimum timing advance and the burn pattern, flame front, etc. is all more controlled and stable producing slightly more power, but a considerable increase in fuel economy. Fleet owners generally lease for 3 years, so they could care less about longevity, but they do track every penny of fuel usage, and they purchase these E2-X systems for fuel savings alone, 1-3 on average increase, so depending on the miles you drive, the "ultimate" solution from Elite Engineering does pay for it'self over time.

 

I know I post a lot to retain, so please read over several times and ask direct questions on any of this not clear.

 

No one has "wasted" their money buying one of the lower cost solutions, but all are priced by effectiveness and what went into the design and production. And all will help, the E2-X is just the ultimate in design and engineering that the GDI move created a need for. And most car/lite truck owners will never do anything about these issues, they will drive until the running has gotten bad enough they trade up for new.

 

First symptoms are a hesitation off idle when accelerating, then this will become more evident as coking grows. Shudder and random misfires will trigger CEL eventually.

 

And so you know why, the air flow disruption and restriction is evident by looking at your valves, but each bank is commanded for every injector on that bank to deliver X amount of fuel (at 2000 plus PSI with GDI vs 50-55 Port Inj.) but the deposits do not form evenly on each valve. Those valves closest to the point of ingestion will coke more rapidly and those furthest slower. As each bank delivers fuel equally to each cylinders the more severe run richer, the less severe leaner than ideal (the upstream O2 on that bank measures A/F as a whole

 

And in closing, here is an tech that started doing a chassis dyno every year for 3 years (started after app 15k miles and puts app. 15k miles a year on) and he documented the degradation in power, and before the fianl run performed a manual crushed walnut shell media blasting service and you can see the results.

 

Each run on same dyno, same SAE correction factor, and app same time of year.

 

And how many of you followed the owners manual for break-in, or the actual Techs instructions that come with each new/replacement/crate engine?

 

Amazing how the population in general is considered "sheep" that trust completely what they are told by the manufacturer!

 

 

 

As the degradation in power is so gradual, most do nit realize it until after a cleaning, and by that time the damage and wear has already occured to the bronze alloy valve guides (See GM TSP's on excessive valve guide wear and instability from it).

 

So, no matter if you are a believer in solvent cleaners, the wear done between these cannot be prevented.

[GDI Tech]

I'll pass on the E2-X can if it only has a drain hole in bottom. I love being able to unscrew the can and take a look inside. Besides that mines collects a fair amount. I'll be sticking with the original. And emptying it every weekend this winter.....

Oh, and ALL Elite cans can be unscrewed and drained and inspected if desired, but the E2-X comes with a high quality 1/4 turn chromed brass drain valve to make it easier on the end user. All are high quality billet 6061 T6 aluminum with O rings sealing them.