Formula 3 Lubricant

Beaux Duke · November 25, 2002

I was doing a search on "Cold Start Knock" (CSK) the other day and found this. Lubrication Specialists - Testimonials

Has anyone tried this product?

They have a testimonial from a customer saying it prevents the dreaded CSK.

I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of it or better yet, tried it in their own vehicle.

bobc · November 25, 2002

Well... If it sounds to good to be true, you can pretty much count on it. I would claim "snake oil" personally. Miracle products would be embraced by the Auto mfr and industry as a whole if they really were superior. Then again I am very distrustful of miracle products. Your mileage may vary. Apply common sense to stuff like this and the sales pitches fall apart.

A single "testimonial" about the "1500 vortec (the new version of 327)" doesn't hold much credibility, not to mention only ONE data point. The second point to remember is that not all 4/8/5.3/6.0 engines exhibit Cold Start Knock. Remember not everyone on this Forum has it or has observed CSK.

I'm still looking into my theory about the oil filter drainback valve being the source of valve train clatter that most service managers are immediately claiming is CSK. I don't believe the decarboning made a difference on MY 5.3L. I give the credit to the oil change. Remember, I'm only one Data point just like the snake oil. However if more folks pay attention to their engine after an oil change with a *quality* oil filter, we may be able to debunk this theory, or possibly prove it. Wouldn't that be nice? Wix filters claim a sillicone anti-drainback, that would be the most resistant to becoming stiff in cold weather. I don't think AC Delco necessarily makes the best filter, but it's gonna be better than a cheap no name or Fram filter IMHO.

Anyone ever notice if these engines are particularly noisy immediately after an Oil change? If so I wonder if just changing the oil filter alone to one with a fresh high quality drain back valve makes a difference? Obviously first startup is going to be a little noisy while the valvetrain gets re oiled after the oil change. But how does the motor sound the next morning? How many miles do most people put on their oil? I have always changed oil at 2-3k max in my auto's, and 1k max on my motorcycles. Do you do your own oil changes or do you have them done at a Jiffy Lube or equivalent and end up with their generic (cheap) oil filter?

later!

bobc

Beaux Duke · November 26, 2002

I'm inclined to agree with you on all counts, bob. That was why I was asking for input from others that might be familiar with or had used the product. One testimonial doesn't carry a lot of weight.

They must be a small company with a fairly new engine product as most of the references I find about them on the internet are for their gun lubricant. From what I could glean from their website one of the ingredients in the product is Antimony. I don't know much about antimony but intend to do more research on it.

I pefer to do my own oil changes. Every 3k miles like clockwork. My preference is Castrol GTX 5w30. I'm currently using a one quart Purolator filter but have read posts about them using cardboard endcaps recently so I'm not so sure about them any longer. I don't think it has the antidrainback feature.

Everytime I change my oil, the filter is full since it is in a vertical position. The usefulness of the antidrainback feature eludes me in this situation. Is there some point in the engine that the oil pools due to an antidrainback valve that helps during startup? Or does your theory pertain only the valve making the noise? If so, then a filter without the valve would not produce the noise, correct?

I've read all the debates for Syn vs Dino. Syn is great but I prefer changing more frequently than syn calls for. My 92 C1500 had over 206k miles and only used a pint between changes. Dino has served me well.

From your response I get the impression you had CSK at one time but now it's gone due to an oil/filter change, is that correct?

If so, what type oil and filter are you using now?

bobc · November 26, 2002

Hey,

My truck WAS makin a helluva a racket prior to a decarbonization and an oil change. The oil change consisted of a new AC Delco PF59C filter and 10W30 oil. The filter that was on there was some generic filter. I bought the truck in Sept and it was quiet as a clam at start up until the temps dropped into the mid 40's. After the dealer did the decarbon deal and oil change the clatter appears to be gone. Even on a fairly cold morning.

The noise I was hearing was valvetrain clatter IMHO and it was seriously loud. The dealer that heard it claimed, "Cold Start Knock"... and this is one reason why I think that most service mgrs are just using that as a catchall and why I think decarbonization is not the fix.

You ask what the benefit of an Anti-Drainback valve is and state your filter is always full when you remove it. It goes like this. The oil pump pushes oil up from the pan into the filter and then to the passages in the block. These passages lead to the crank, cam bearings and tappets. The galley that feeds the tappets is *above* the oil filter. When the engine is shut off the oil is going to start the process of flowing back to the pan. The tappet galleys rely on the anti-drainback valve to resist the easiest path back to the oil pan. Without the drain back valve the oil passes back through the filter and much like an over flowing bucket keeps the filter full, meanwhile the additional oil is flowing back to the pan via the oil pump. Without a drainback valve, the galley is basically empty of oil in a couple of hours, and to make matters worse, the tappets that were holding a valve open at the time of shut down will also leak down until tappet plunger is bottomed out in the tappet. Those tappets that weren't holding a valve off the seat will still have oil in them and will be quiet on startup. Those that are empty will have to fill up. BUT becuase the tappet oil galleys are empty of oil the tappets will be trying to pump back up but will be suckin air. Clatter-clatter.. is the lash in the valve train and the sound of the tappet plunger bottoming out within the tappet until full of oil, afterwhich become nice and quiet... typically 10-30 seconds I'd guess. A really dry or damaged lifter will take longer to pump up than a wet lifter becuase it will require the pressurized oil to prime it. Notice that some of the TSBs state that tappet replacement is recommended. I could go on about that too.. I know of another mfgr that has similar problems with tappet bleed down..

If I were you I would verify if that filter has an anti drainback. You can usually see the drainback as a flexible black rubber ring that is visible when you look thru the smaller holes that surround the threaded center hole on the filter. If it doesn't, stop using them. Go to www.wixfilters.com and do a cross reference for your big filter. Maybe Wix has the same (or similar) filter and it has the anti drainback valve. If they don't list one, then the application for that filter probably has a built in valve and doesn't need it in the filter. Here's an example of an application that has no need for a drainback. The oil filter on my Harley is almost the same exact size as the PF59, but it has no anti drainback valve. That is becuase Harley decided to filter the oil on it's way OUT of the engine... which is stupid btw... But the oil galleys that feed my tappets are connected to the oil pump and the oil tank is HIGHER than the the tappets. No drain back. I know the sound of dry tappets very well for reasons other than drainback.. All it takes is a small piece of crap to get thru the oil pump on a harley and into the tappet to stick that tappet valve open... it's rare, but when it happens you can't miss it!

Your mission, should you decide to accept it:

If your engine makes a racket at start up all the time, try swapping JUST the oil filter this weekend and see if it makes a difference. If it shuts up the noise you WILL be a happy camper. If not, you will debunk my theory and I'll have to start believing that maybe my engine is quieter due to the decarbonization... I hope to #### that is not the case, I like the idea of changing an oil filter vs running a bunch of sh*t thru my engine to loosen the carbon... My truck *still* smells like that crap after 1.5 weeks and 250 miles.

Good luck and let us know what you find out!

later

bobc

Beaux Duke · November 26, 2002

I'll take you up on the filter change idea. I had pretty much come to that conclusion anyway. However it probably won't happen this weekend. I won't be driving the truck (use the S-10 as a daily driver) and with the holidays, wiring my new shed and all the "honey do's" it'll probably be pushed back till some time next week but who knows, I may be able to work it in.

So yours stopped immediately after the decarbonization and filter change? Immediately being defined as the next morning or two.

I agree that the dealers are using CSK as the reason for virtually any noise they hear under the hood.

Thanks

bobc · November 26, 2002

So yours stopped immediately after the decarbonization and filter change? Immediately being defined as the next morning or two.

I agree that the dealers are using CSK as the reason for virtually any noise they hear under the hood.

Thanks

Yep... Immediately. Hasn't made a tick or clatter since. Check it out when you can. It'll be interesting to see if there's a correlation.

later!

bob

Beaux Duke · December 5, 2002

Bob, no luck. I installed a new filter with the anti-drainback valve with no results. I guess my engine's problem is caused by something else.

Beaux Duke · December 11, 2002

Bob,

I started my truck this a.m (12/11 temp 37 degrees) and there was no knock/tapping.

I'm halfway through my second tank of Texaco 89 octane that I've treated with 2 ozs of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) per every 5 gallons.

I had been buying 87 gas at the local Spur station and occasionally at Racetrac.

I think the better gas and the MMO may have done the trick for me.

bobc · December 16, 2002

Hey Beaux,

Sorry to reply so sloooow. I've been swamped at work and then to top it off my acct got messed up and I couldn't log on.

Hmm, So no change from oil filter change alone. How long after did you start using different fuel? My truck is still quiet at start up with low 40 temps and over 1000 miles on the new filter. I use the same fuel. 89 or 92 octane Chevron. I had BAD pinging problems under throttle with 87 so I refuse to use it. 89 seems to be a good compromise on my 5.3. BTW I'm using the same fuel since i bought the truck in Sept, 2400 miles so far. Maybe the cheaper gas is creating more build up in the combustion chamber.... Who knows.

I am surprised that the lack of drain back vs drain back equipped oil filter was not more noticable. Then again, for the same reason the Service Writers are lumping all engine noise into the CSK category, it's hard to "debug" problems like this without data and side by side comparison of several engines...

I must say that since I've gotten my startup knock quieted down and the intermittent startup smoke under control I'm enjoying the truck MUCH more. For a while there I was seriously thinking about passing these problems on to another owner... Like the previous owner tried to do to me.

Later!

bob

Beaux Duke · December 17, 2002

Bob,

I had to fill up right after the filter was changed. Since I only get about 12.3 mpg I was able to burn thru 2 tanks pretty quick.

bobc · December 18, 2002

Bob,
I had to fill up right after the filter was changed. Since I only get about 12.3 mpg I was able to burn thru 2 tanks pretty quick.

ouch...

Hey, when you said you still had CSK, was that observed during the post oil change start and check for leaks? That first startup would definately be expected to be noisy.

Did it only quiet down when the new tank of fuel was used? If so had you quite a bit of that fuel prior to the quiet starts? Maybe the better fuel and combo of MMO helped to decarbonize the chambers... or it's making the fuel more resistant to knock, or cleaned up a set of dirty injectors... Dunno. Interesting regardless, IMO.

later,

bobc

Beaux Duke · December 20, 2002

I changed the filter after I got home while it was still warm. Then added a quart and started it to move it back into the garage. Knock was very brief. The next morning I started it, heard the knock as usual. Drove to the Texaco, filled up, added the MMO and drove to work. It knocked when I started it that evening to leave work.

I then had to make a rather long trip and ran through most of another tank without really letting it cool down. The next time I started it on a cool morning, I couldn't hear anything.

So, what actually solved the problem, I'm not sure.

Better fuel?

MMO?

Extended driving period?

Different oil filter?

All of the above?

It hasn't knocked since then and maybe it's only temporary but for now I'm happy.