Programmers, Tq Mngmnt And Warranty

[leverlution]

Got a few programmer questions. First, do the handhelds take out a lot of the torque management or is it noticeable? I know BlackBear is better, but im not swapping pcms and what not.

 

Second of all, someone told me that anytime you hook a programmer to a newer GM, it leaves a "fingerprint" that can be seen with a tech2 and will void the warranty. Sounds far fetched, but with computers it really wouldn't be hard to impliment. I know modifying in any way can cause problems with related systems, and computers are a no-no cause they control anything, but how realistic is this?

 

Thanks.

[VVT]

BlackBear is a tuning company not a tuning device. HpTuners or EfiLive are the cream of the crop for tuning suites but you need to run them through a laptop. Diablo and other handhelds are all in once hardware/software solutions that do a decent job of most basic tuning needs. Im pretty sure they all can remove tq management. As for the warranty? If you use a handheld it will likely leave tracks if you use a tuning suite such as Hp or EfiLive then you could save your factory file and reload it if you had to go for service. To my knowledge there is no trace of anything by doing this but I havent faced it yet myself so I cant say for sure.

[old-chevy-dude]

i'm new with the GM stuff, but I doubt it is that much different than the Dodge/Chrysler stuff.

 

Chryslers version of the Tech2 is called a "Star Scan", I have owned a Star Scan since 2005 when I bought my Chrysler 300c Hemi.. I bought it because at the time there were no tuning devices for the Chrysler Hemi cars and as programming and vehicle networks and electrical systems is very heavy in my background I figured i would see what I could do.. I also thru some contacts at Chrysler obtained their CDA programming software, which is the Engineering Software Tool they use to program each module on the car.

 

 

since 2005 there are now a 1/2 dozen programmers for the Chrysler Hemi cars, with the Diablo being the top programmer..

 

in 2007 Chrysler sent a memo to their dealers notifying them that any Hemi vehicle or Cummins Diesel Vehicle that came in for warranty on a blown motor would be dissected by their engineers to determine if the tune had been altered, and if proof was found as such the warranty would be denied.

 

 

from the dealer level the Star Scan cannot do this. but from the Engineering level (Chrysler CDA software) it can see how many times and when the PCM was flashed.. basically it will say that the CROM has been written to XX number of times and the last time was XXXXXXX seconds ago..

 

so from that perspective, yes there is a finger-print..

 

however if you always return the vehicle to STOCK before trips to the dealer (because yes they can see the AF tables are changed in the Tech2 and Star Scan if you leave the tune in) and you don't blow your motor and try to claim warranty on it, chances are the dealer won't ever have reason to have the engineers look at your PCM.

[music]

Whether they can or can't... will or won't... assume that they can and will. That way, you'll drive it "right" and not break stuff that would cause them to care.

[VT_Z71]

I can swap between my Blackbear-tuned and stock ECM/PCM modules in about 90 seconds flat (30 seconds of which are disconnecting the battery negative prior to the swap). I have made it a habit to put my stock units back in every time I pay the dealership a visit no matter what that may be for. Its so simple and quick and you never know when the dealer might decide to go snooping around your system / flashing it with updates.

 

As long as you keep your stock and tuned ECM/PCM units separate, and switch between the two whenever paying the dealer a visit there is no evidence that anything is out of the ordinary in the Tech2's eyes.

[redvett]

Here is the info on calibrations and warranty.

I am sure there is a later bulletin than this.

 

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

 

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,

3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L

Gas Powered Engines Only

 

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3

Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

 

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

 

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

 

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

 

1. Go to TIS2WEB

2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"

3. Enter VIN

4. Select "Get Cal ID"

5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"

6. Select "Next"

7. Select "Complete History"

8. Print

9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®

10. Plug in the Tech 2®

11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle

12. Select "Powertrain"

13. Select "Engine"

14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"

15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.

16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

 

* Steps may vary by controller.

 

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

 

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

 

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

 

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to [email protected] and STEVEN.R. [email protected] for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

[RyanbabZ71]

WITH AUTOCAL YOU DONT EVEN NEED NEW MODULES (SORRY ABOUT ALL CAPS i AM NOT YELLING just didnt want to retype)

[VVT]

This is definitely the way to go if your worried. Even still I would have to think that if you saved the factory tuned and flashed it back in for each visit and then saved it again immediately after each visit ( good tip regarding possible firmware updates etc. ) Id have to think they would likely not bother looking for much more than that. Its not like the techs are concerned with anything other than billable hours.

 

I can swap between my Blackbear-tuned and stock ECM/PCM modules in about 90 seconds flat (30 seconds of which are disconnecting the battery negative prior to the swap). I have made it a habit to put my stock units back in every time I pay the dealership a visit no matter what that may be for. Its so simple and quick and you never know when the dealer might decide to go snooping around your system / flashing it with updates.

 

As long as you keep your stock and tuned ECM/PCM units separate, and switch between the two whenever paying the dealer a visit there is no evidence that anything is out of the ordinary in the Tech2's eyes.

[old-chevy-dude]

Here is the info on calibrations and warranty.

I am sure there is a later bulletin than this.

 

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

 

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,

3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L

Gas Powered Engines Only

 

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3

Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

 

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

 

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

 

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

 

1. Go to TIS2WEB

2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"

3. Enter VIN

4. Select "Get Cal ID"

5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"

6. Select "Next"

7. Select "Complete History"

8. Print

9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®

10. Plug in the Tech 2®

11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle

12. Select "Powertrain"

13. Select "Engine"

14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"

15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.

16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

 

* Steps may vary by controller.

 

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

 

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

 

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

 

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to [email protected] and STEVEN.R. [email protected] for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

i'm curious about this:

 

 

with a diablo predator hand held (on a Dodge, again I haven't gotten too deep into the GM's yet)

 

you can (have to actaully) save the Original Tune, which is stored on the hand held, then you write your Diablo Tune to the car, be it a canned or custom.

 

 

when you go to the dealer, you restore the tune to OEM, i.e. put the Original Tune back..

 

so the question is:

 

 

when putting the OEM tune back, does it alter the CVN or is it writing back the CVN correctly..

 

---

 

 

i can see where in that TSB if an aftermarket tune was left in the PCM it would show as such, but I would think restoring the OEM tune would present itself as everything matching..

 

 

of course the 2 fail safes are:

 

1. don't use a tuner

 

2. buy a second PCM for the tuner and keep your OEM PCM 100% OEM..

[sic lsx]

I dont care if anyone agrees or disagrees! IT CAN BE FOUND IF THE WANT TO FUND IT! I know too many people that work at gm in service department They are just like us have always fixed up car/trucks! 2 of them do tunes for local shops. Down in Florida and here in Lousiana. They all say the same thing. They Even said if you put another cpu in it still can be found that u swapped them. They cant say what u did or what was on the other CPU but it shows the cpu's have been replaced and re flashed. Then they have the right to void your warranty if they want. They also said we went to class for this to know what the codes means and unless u were in those classes u would never know and That everything would look good. They said they take it as a challenge to find it and wont stop till they find it and one said he is 9for9 on finding cars/trucks that have broken. all of them had tunes re flashed to stock. Lol one of them said he had a EFI live sticker on the glass lmao WTF dumb a$$

[VVT]

I can assure you the mechanics here are not at all like these guys you describe

 

I dont care if anyone agrees or disagrees! IT CAN BE FOUND IF THE WANT TO FUND IT! I know too many people that work at gm in service department They are just like us have always fixed up car/trucks! 2 of them do tunes for local shops. Down in Florida and here in Lousiana. They all say the same thing. They Even said if you put another cpu in it still can be found that u swapped them. They cant say what u did or what was on the other CPU but it shows the cpu's have been replaced and re flashed. Then they have the right to void your warranty if they want. They also said we went to class for this to know what the codes means and unless u were in those classes u would never know and That everything would look good. They said they take it as a challenge to find it and wont stop till they find it and one said he is 9for9 on finding cars/trucks that have broken. all of them had tunes re flashed to stock. Lol one of them said he had a EFI live sticker on the glass lmao WTF dumb a$

[music]

The techs don't care... but GM does. They are only going to consider looking deeper if a hard part breaks in a way that suggests it's been hammered. So, if someone wants to tune out all the nannies without having to worry about warranties, then they shouldn't hammer the snot out of it. Honestly, if someone does that and then expects GM (i.e. the rest of us buyers) to fix it for free, then they need a good dose of responsibility. All that said, it isn't at all clear whether they can find this on the GMT900 trucks yet (hint... not a single person on this site has ever reported such a thing)... but the new Camaro apparently *can* be detected (some kind of counter).

[old-chevy-dude]

The techs don't care... but GM does. They are only going to consider looking deeper if a hard part breaks in a way that suggests it's been hammered. So, if someone wants to tune out all the nannies without having to worry about warranties, then they shouldn't hammer the snot out of it. Honestly, if someone does that and then expects GM (i.e. the rest of us buyers) to fix it for free, then they need a good dose of responsibility. All that said, it isn't at all clear whether they can find this on the GMT900 trucks yet (hint... not a single person on this site has ever reported such a thing)... but the new Camaro apparently *can* be detected (some kind of counter).

 

 

yeah most likely the same way Chrysler does it.. PCM flashed XX # of times last flash was XX # of seconds ago.. it's stored in the CROM of the PCM's CPU so aside from zapping it with a tazer gun you can't erase it..

[06MonteSS]

Here is the info on calibrations and warranty.

I am sure there is a later bulletin than this.

 

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

 

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,

3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L

Gas Powered Engines Only

 

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3

Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

 

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

 

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

 

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

 

1. Go to TIS2WEB

2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"

3. Enter VIN

4. Select "Get Cal ID"

5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"

6. Select "Next"

7. Select "Complete History"

8. Print

9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®

10. Plug in the Tech 2®

11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle

12. Select "Powertrain"

13. Select "Engine"

14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"

15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.

16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

 

* Steps may vary by controller.

 

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

 

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

 

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

 

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to [email protected] and STEVEN.R. [email protected] for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

i'm curious about this:

 

 

with a diablo predator hand held (on a Dodge, again I haven't gotten too deep into the GM's yet)

 

you can (have to actaully) save the Original Tune, which is stored on the hand held, then you write your Diablo Tune to the car, be it a canned or custom.

 

 

when you go to the dealer, you restore the tune to OEM, i.e. put the Original Tune back..

 

so the question is:

 

 

when putting the OEM tune back, does it alter the CVN or is it writing back the CVN correctly..

 

---

 

 

i can see where in that TSB if an aftermarket tune was left in the PCM it would show as such, but I would think restoring the OEM tune would present itself as everything matching..

 

 

of course the 2 fail safes are:

 

1. don't use a tuner

 

2. buy a second PCM for the tuner and keep your OEM PCM 100% OEM..

 

 

no... CVN's are not touched... restore the original backup stock tune to the vehicle and there are no issues...

 

as for swapping ecm's, can't do that with the new vehicles (2010+)... additional info is stored in them, one such item being the mileage... and when that doesn't match the odometer, they know you've swapped it...

[old-chevy-dude]

no... CVN's are not touched... restore the original backup stock tune to the vehicle and there are no issues...

 

as for swapping ecm's, can't do that with the new vehicles (2010+)... additional info is stored in them, one such item being the mileage... and when that doesn't match the odometer, they know you've swapped it...

 

 

yeah the Chryslers do that too.. all I did was reset the PCM mileage with my Star Scan, the Odometer is the Federally Regulated part and you can't change that, the PCM is just a backup/fail safe for the dealer/warranty.

 

 

 

so you work for Diablo?